Water Leak Detection
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@OliverDog said in Water Leak Detection:
The problem is how to measur water flow without adding chinese components in contact with your water!
@OliverDog Supposedly Moen's Flo can measure leaks down to even 1 drop a minute, which is pretty amazing. Allegedly its software already has some amount of leak detection built in based on usage patterns. Is it worth it? Compared to most flow meters, which can't resolve to a drop a minute, it's quite expensive. However, I look at it the same as insurance, except better, and compared to the cost of insurance it's... cheap? I would hope that the price premium buys better quality than chinesium, but.... who knows? I'm concerned it might reduce dynamic water pressure, and none of the reviews think to check for that. It's a 3/4" connection rather than 1 inch, so it's going to have some effect. And it's yet another thing that might break or go bad with time. I like the idea of it, but for me it's in the category of "nice to have" rather than "gotta have.".
@NeverDie There's a danger of trying to find a overall solution for distinctly different scenarios even if they all concern water escape.
Leakage or loss within a domestic supply can be readily picked up by a Class D water meter with K-1. My domestic meter is Class D with a 1 Litre sensor linked to Domoticz so any leakage shows up overnight. Your a drip per minute sounds miniscule, but if you sleep the average 8 hours, that's 480 drips overnight, chances are it will trigger the meter.
The beauty of modern positive displacement meters is they are mounting agnostic, have remarkably low pressure drop and are built for 20+ years reliable life. Usually the sensor costs more than the meter, but even $150 is cheaper than the insurance loss if something goes wrong.For leakage in a say a bathroom, wet socks are the surest indicator there is a problem to investigate. Almost built one to alarm for a water softener drain overflowing, but ended up altering the plumbing with a backup overflow. Problem solved but a sensor node remains on my to-do list.
A burst will cause damage within minutes and chances are it will occur when you are not there or within earshot. Only had one instance where a valve literally burst (faulty casting?) but heard it and managed to isolate quickly. Had I been elsewhere and received an alarm because a sensor detected it, by the time I responded the damage would have been horrendous (3m3 tank and pumped supply :face_with_rolling_eyes: ), but a public water supply will continue to feed regardless.
For the vast majority of normal sensors they rely on detecting water on the floor to alert you to a partial but unusual leak from a stuck ballcock, stuck/split air valve or a loosened drain connection, the only question is the detection area.
However, returning to that Class D, it is equally possible that the system alarms for unusual triggers when nobody is in the house (say intruder alarm active) or at night times when asleep, one litre of water is a lot easier to deal with. It is equally possible to trigger an electronic shut-off valve if the flow exceeds normal use as with a burst.
Just my 2c... -
@NeverDie There's a danger of trying to find a overall solution for distinctly different scenarios even if they all concern water escape.
Leakage or loss within a domestic supply can be readily picked up by a Class D water meter with K-1. My domestic meter is Class D with a 1 Litre sensor linked to Domoticz so any leakage shows up overnight. Your a drip per minute sounds miniscule, but if you sleep the average 8 hours, that's 480 drips overnight, chances are it will trigger the meter.
The beauty of modern positive displacement meters is they are mounting agnostic, have remarkably low pressure drop and are built for 20+ years reliable life. Usually the sensor costs more than the meter, but even $150 is cheaper than the insurance loss if something goes wrong.For leakage in a say a bathroom, wet socks are the surest indicator there is a problem to investigate. Almost built one to alarm for a water softener drain overflowing, but ended up altering the plumbing with a backup overflow. Problem solved but a sensor node remains on my to-do list.
A burst will cause damage within minutes and chances are it will occur when you are not there or within earshot. Only had one instance where a valve literally burst (faulty casting?) but heard it and managed to isolate quickly. Had I been elsewhere and received an alarm because a sensor detected it, by the time I responded the damage would have been horrendous (3m3 tank and pumped supply :face_with_rolling_eyes: ), but a public water supply will continue to feed regardless.
For the vast majority of normal sensors they rely on detecting water on the floor to alert you to a partial but unusual leak from a stuck ballcock, stuck/split air valve or a loosened drain connection, the only question is the detection area.
However, returning to that Class D, it is equally possible that the system alarms for unusual triggers when nobody is in the house (say intruder alarm active) or at night times when asleep, one litre of water is a lot easier to deal with. It is equally possible to trigger an electronic shut-off valve if the flow exceeds normal use as with a burst.
Just my 2c...@zboblamont I knew a guy on one of the other home automation forums who had his water supply turn off automatically every time he leaves home. That seems a bit limiting to me (you can't run the dishwasher or laundry or even your ice maker when you're gone), but maybe it's wise.
Which Class D meter do you recommend?
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@zboblamont I knew a guy on one of the other home automation forums who had his water supply turn off automatically every time he leaves home. That seems a bit limiting to me (you can't run the dishwasher or laundry or even your ice maker when you're gone), but maybe it's wise.
Which Class D meter do you recommend?
@NeverDie I'm not conversant with the US marketplace, my own is an Elster V200 from memory.. They make all sorts of variants eg https://www.johnsonvalves.co.uk/tag/iso4064-class-d/ but these are modern versions of their original V100 which I believe is still manufactured in Malaysia (?), and I see from a quick Google for "volumetric water meters" Chinese manufacturers are copying it also.
Other european manufacturers are Itron, Sensus etc, but they are heavily committed to service companies hence built in radio for drive-by meter reading etc...
One which uses a reed activated sensor is by far the simplest and most reliable to incorporate for domestic monitoring, but YMMV.
The only the thing to watch for is maximum flow rate, if your max demand can be satisfied by a 15mm instead of 20mm the headloss should have no impact while detecting lower flows (or leakage).Shutting down supply is failsafe but impractical as you've highlighted. You're smart enough to figure out how to monitor flow rates and say shut down supply (electronic valve) if a "burst" is picked up by the node, hence normal usage will not be a problem.
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Sorry about newbie question, but how could I read water flow on Home Assistant using those Class D? Do they send measurement wirelessly or do I need to build some reading sensor outside?
By the way, have you seen Flume Water Monitor? For $ 199,00
It has already been integrated with HASS
https://www.home-assistant.io/integrations/flume/ -
Sorry about newbie question, but how could I read water flow on Home Assistant using those Class D? Do they send measurement wirelessly or do I need to build some reading sensor outside?
By the way, have you seen Flume Water Monitor? For $ 199,00
It has already been integrated with HASS
https://www.home-assistant.io/integrations/flume/@OliverDog In the case of the reed, you'd need something that could read opening and closing of a switch contact and then translate that in your software to a flow . It's something you could DIY with an Arduino.
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Yes, I understand how to make a reed talk to my Home Automation, but I don't see any wires outcomming from those Class D @zboblamont posted above.
My Newbie question was about those Class D beeing a reed sensor, or electronic switch, that sends a open/close signal or if I would need a DIY way to read a ordinary water flow meter...
But after check Datasheet from V200H I could notice a small plug on top and the wired pulse info... so It would act like a reed sensor with a pulse for each liter spent!
Now I got it.But How much does it cost???
And won't be better an external sensor, just like that I posted, called Flume Water Monitor, once Class D could lower pressure from system? -
Yes, I understand how to make a reed talk to my Home Automation, but I don't see any wires outcomming from those Class D @zboblamont posted above.
My Newbie question was about those Class D beeing a reed sensor, or electronic switch, that sends a open/close signal or if I would need a DIY way to read a ordinary water flow meter...
But after check Datasheet from V200H I could notice a small plug on top and the wired pulse info... so It would act like a reed sensor with a pulse for each liter spent!
Now I got it.But How much does it cost???
And won't be better an external sensor, just like that I posted, called Flume Water Monitor, once Class D could lower pressure from system?@OliverDog Regarding the Flume:
“Flume’s central innovation is the patent-pending Flume sensor,” the company said in a statement. “When water flows through a household water meter, a magnetic disc spins inside of the meter. The rate at which the disc spins correlates directly to a water flow rate.”
The Flume sensor measures this magnetic field from the meter, then sends the information to the app by way of a radio frequency signal, the company stated.
Why would there necessarily be a magnetic disc inside a water meter though? Or does the Flume assume a special kind of water meter? My water utility still reads the meters manually.
Edit: Oh, I see now:
Nutating Disk Water Meter
Nutating disk water meters have an internal disk that "wobbles" as flow passes around it. Disk meters are a type of "positive displacement" meter, and will respond to very low flow rates. Water utilities have traditionally used this type of meter, and they are sometimes called "utility meters."
The disk in these meters is connected to a magnet, which in turn drives the register that shows accumulated water use. Disk meters can be equipped with pulse output devices that are driven mechanically or coupled to the field of the rotating magnet. The resolution of pulse outputs on water meters is typically 50 to 200 pulses per gallon of flow.
The accuracy of disk meters drops off significantly at flows below about ¼ or ½ gallon per minute. However, they are capable of sensing much smaller flow rates, and can be used to identify leakage in domestic water systems. They will also produce output pulses when water flows in the reverse of the usual direction in systems. Small forward–reverse flow oscillations may be caused by thermal expansion (of water and/or water tanks), and by pressure changes (especially if there are air pockets in the system). The commonly used pulse output devices don't provide information on flow direction, and pulse data at low flow rates should be scrutinized to determine whether it represents positive water use or oscillating flow.
https://buildingsfieldtest.nrel.gov/nutating_disk_water_meterSo, maybe all you need is a hall effect sensor to read flow pulses from a typical water meter? This seems worth investigating. :)
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@OliverDog Regarding the Flume:
“Flume’s central innovation is the patent-pending Flume sensor,” the company said in a statement. “When water flows through a household water meter, a magnetic disc spins inside of the meter. The rate at which the disc spins correlates directly to a water flow rate.”
The Flume sensor measures this magnetic field from the meter, then sends the information to the app by way of a radio frequency signal, the company stated.
Why would there necessarily be a magnetic disc inside a water meter though? Or does the Flume assume a special kind of water meter? My water utility still reads the meters manually.
Edit: Oh, I see now:
Nutating Disk Water Meter
Nutating disk water meters have an internal disk that "wobbles" as flow passes around it. Disk meters are a type of "positive displacement" meter, and will respond to very low flow rates. Water utilities have traditionally used this type of meter, and they are sometimes called "utility meters."
The disk in these meters is connected to a magnet, which in turn drives the register that shows accumulated water use. Disk meters can be equipped with pulse output devices that are driven mechanically or coupled to the field of the rotating magnet. The resolution of pulse outputs on water meters is typically 50 to 200 pulses per gallon of flow.
The accuracy of disk meters drops off significantly at flows below about ¼ or ½ gallon per minute. However, they are capable of sensing much smaller flow rates, and can be used to identify leakage in domestic water systems. They will also produce output pulses when water flows in the reverse of the usual direction in systems. Small forward–reverse flow oscillations may be caused by thermal expansion (of water and/or water tanks), and by pressure changes (especially if there are air pockets in the system). The commonly used pulse output devices don't provide information on flow direction, and pulse data at low flow rates should be scrutinized to determine whether it represents positive water use or oscillating flow.
https://buildingsfieldtest.nrel.gov/nutating_disk_water_meterSo, maybe all you need is a hall effect sensor to read flow pulses from a typical water meter? This seems worth investigating. :)
@NeverDie Most all normal water meters use magnetic drives to isolate the register from the main flow (even the wet registers).
Common water meters are single or multi-jet Class A or B to actuate the magnetic disc but meter orientation alters accuracy. The positive displacement/piston variety simply rotates volumetrically so orientation does not matter. There are also ultrasonic types so again no contact, very accurate but crazy expensive.The critical point is the K factor of the factory built meter, K=1 means 1 litre output. This is not something you can alter, eg My outdoors Zenith is a multijet with K=500, the sensor is about 50 euro, but a 5c reed fits just fine. Useless at 500 litre/pulse but it illustrates the point it's how the meter is built.
@OliverDog the V200 I have has a mosfet type sensor (triggered by an inductor?) rather than a reed, normally very expensive, but I got lucky with one supplier, from memory the meter and sensor were less than 100 quid, the battery for the sensor lasts maybe 10 years. If it dies I'll install a V100.
Modern versions such as the V200H are usually RF or cable to a specialist receiver but it starts getting complicated with proprietary protocols as they're really designed for the water service industry, although some wizzes have hacked various models. May be worth a google as I'm out of touch these days..
It may be an old Class D design, but the V100 I nearly bought instead has a plugged socket in which the reed is inserted into the meter body. The Elster official reed is expensive but you can slip a normal reed in with a bit of preparation, it works fine as did one for a friend. Pretty sure the V100 is now made in Malaysia by the ex-director or similar of Elster, demand in Europe etc for the drive-by reading capability and Class D has tilted the market. No idea whether the Chinese market has clones or they're made properly.
@NeverDie "A patent pending Flume sensor"... Flumes are restrictors for open channel flow measurement been around for over a century or more, a pipe version is called a Dall Tube, see Bernoulli's equation.
Sounds like marketing hype, but it's just mag measurement sent to an app.
A lot of folks have tried sensing magnetic fields or reading part of the register, think some on here had some success with photo sensors, so plenty of options...
