Help for an irrigation system with a few inconveniences
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I'm with @zboblamont on this......
Do NOT bury batteries.
Do NOT bury RF devices.Do keep these things above ground level and accessible - you know those batteries won't last forever, right?
You seem to have a good boundry to run a cable along - the cable can be buried or overground and attached to posts.
What max-min temps are you looking at there? What average yearly rainfall?
.....and tomatoes are soooo cheap to buy in the shops too, why bother with all this? .... ;)
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@skywatch TASTE ? :hugging_face: Home grown and fresh, some olive oil and shredded basil, feta, and olives, to die for... ;)
@zboblamont I know ;) - I used to grow San Marzano here, but in the UK the shops are full of so many different varieties now and it didn't seem worth the bother with compost, watering, pest control, heating/cooling etc. - But you are right, freshly picked are impossible to beat! :)
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I'm with @zboblamont on this......
Do NOT bury batteries.
Do NOT bury RF devices.Do keep these things above ground level and accessible - you know those batteries won't last forever, right?
You seem to have a good boundry to run a cable along - the cable can be buried or overground and attached to posts.
What max-min temps are you looking at there? What average yearly rainfall?
.....and tomatoes are soooo cheap to buy in the shops too, why bother with all this? .... ;)
@skywatch ok! To keep it in mind, when I say that the node is buried, in fact it is inside a box which is buried...
I totally agree with you in the sense that if the antennas are buried, I would not be able to communicate with anything.
Besides, I would try to put the node out of the buried box somewhere. A good idea is to bury a cable which connect the valves. In this way I will be able to place a pole in other, more appropriate places.
Regarding the rain, where I live, is very rainy. I live in the basque country, north of spain. And about temperatures, I have to say that we could reach -10 during winter, it can be covered with snow also, and in during summer the temperatures reach 35 degrees at most...
Thank you! I will buy rf69 modules to give it a try. I am also planning to contract Internet service since the basque government is installing optical fiber in the small villages like mine.
My tomatoes are going ti be the most expensive ones in the entire country for sure, but anyway, I am learning a lot :smile:
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@skywatch ok! To keep it in mind, when I say that the node is buried, in fact it is inside a box which is buried...
I totally agree with you in the sense that if the antennas are buried, I would not be able to communicate with anything.
Besides, I would try to put the node out of the buried box somewhere. A good idea is to bury a cable which connect the valves. In this way I will be able to place a pole in other, more appropriate places.
Regarding the rain, where I live, is very rainy. I live in the basque country, north of spain. And about temperatures, I have to say that we could reach -10 during winter, it can be covered with snow also, and in during summer the temperatures reach 35 degrees at most...
Thank you! I will buy rf69 modules to give it a try. I am also planning to contract Internet service since the basque government is installing optical fiber in the small villages like mine.
My tomatoes are going ti be the most expensive ones in the entire country for sure, but anyway, I am learning a lot :smile:
@ancalotoru Glad cabling made sense, it will solve your primary problem of communications with a wall or pole mount.
I noted "Rain bird" stock 3 core and 7 core cables but in 75m drums. Presumably your dead device will have a short connecting cable in the box to cross check which version you need, then order an equivalent in the market at probably cheaper cost for just over the length you actually require... I suggest putting the cable inside some conduit before burial, that way it gets damaged for some reason you can pull through a replacement.
If you go for a pole or wall mount for your node, can recommend this type of light switch box (433MHz gas meter node) as an AA battery holder fits neatly under the transparent cover making changing batteries really easy just by unlatching the hinged lid, although still not needed yet after 2 years running... :stuck_out_tongue_winking_eye:![0_1564133873233_20190726_122956[1].jpg](/assets/uploads/files/1564133883718-20190726_122956-1-resized.jpg)
Good luck... -
@skywatch ok! To keep it in mind, when I say that the node is buried, in fact it is inside a box which is buried...
I totally agree with you in the sense that if the antennas are buried, I would not be able to communicate with anything.
Besides, I would try to put the node out of the buried box somewhere. A good idea is to bury a cable which connect the valves. In this way I will be able to place a pole in other, more appropriate places.
Regarding the rain, where I live, is very rainy. I live in the basque country, north of spain. And about temperatures, I have to say that we could reach -10 during winter, it can be covered with snow also, and in during summer the temperatures reach 35 degrees at most...
Thank you! I will buy rf69 modules to give it a try. I am also planning to contract Internet service since the basque government is installing optical fiber in the small villages like mine.
My tomatoes are going ti be the most expensive ones in the entire country for sure, but anyway, I am learning a lot :smile:
@ancalotoru OK - It is good that you have not given up and are learning a lot. Bueno! ;)
Very high temps are not good for batteries in use or stored.
Very low temperaures are good for storing batteried but not for using them as a power source.
This is because all batteries are based on a chemical reaction and the colder the temperature the less energy there will be in the atoms. Below 0C the batteries will probably die very quickly in use, but they will last longer if stored this way - I hope that makes sense!.....If I were doing your project I would think of 2 possible options.....
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Find a safe way to run the house electricity to the point of the node and have power supply there in waterproof box, plenty big enough as there will be no air flow for cooling. Here I put a weatherproof box with mains socket on the ouside wall and connected it to the back of an inside double socket (just added it to the screw terminals on the back). The whole house is on an RCD and so are the sockets.
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Use and old mains transformer to send AC of about 9-15V to the node and have it rectified into DC (with bridge rectifier) and then into a voltage regulator.
Advantages are, no problems with temperature, no batteries to change (that will always happen at the worst moment and in the worst weather anyway and nearly always at night ;) ).....
Do not put 5v DC into a cable at the house and expect it to be 5V when it gets down the garden to the node, it won't. There will be losses, so the above are how I would proceed but you could try sending 12V DC to the node and again having a power regulator there for 5V DC output (or 3.3V if you want).
I guess that once the temps are above 10C at night you could use a solar panel with rechargeable batteries, but again there is a higher risk of failure and you want reliability - having the internet there to tell you there is a problem when you are not actually there to do something about that problem is not going to improve reliability.
You could also consider a phone module to send text messages to your phone when things go wrong. With a pay-as-you-go card it could be a lot cheaper than internet at the property. But with internet you can expand into home and garden security as well..... ;)
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@ancalotoru OK - It is good that you have not given up and are learning a lot. Bueno! ;)
Very high temps are not good for batteries in use or stored.
Very low temperaures are good for storing batteried but not for using them as a power source.
This is because all batteries are based on a chemical reaction and the colder the temperature the less energy there will be in the atoms. Below 0C the batteries will probably die very quickly in use, but they will last longer if stored this way - I hope that makes sense!.....If I were doing your project I would think of 2 possible options.....
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Find a safe way to run the house electricity to the point of the node and have power supply there in waterproof box, plenty big enough as there will be no air flow for cooling. Here I put a weatherproof box with mains socket on the ouside wall and connected it to the back of an inside double socket (just added it to the screw terminals on the back). The whole house is on an RCD and so are the sockets.
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Use and old mains transformer to send AC of about 9-15V to the node and have it rectified into DC (with bridge rectifier) and then into a voltage regulator.
Advantages are, no problems with temperature, no batteries to change (that will always happen at the worst moment and in the worst weather anyway and nearly always at night ;) ).....
Do not put 5v DC into a cable at the house and expect it to be 5V when it gets down the garden to the node, it won't. There will be losses, so the above are how I would proceed but you could try sending 12V DC to the node and again having a power regulator there for 5V DC output (or 3.3V if you want).
I guess that once the temps are above 10C at night you could use a solar panel with rechargeable batteries, but again there is a higher risk of failure and you want reliability - having the internet there to tell you there is a problem when you are not actually there to do something about that problem is not going to improve reliability.
You could also consider a phone module to send text messages to your phone when things go wrong. With a pay-as-you-go card it could be a lot cheaper than internet at the property. But with internet you can expand into home and garden security as well..... ;)
@skywatch said in Help for an irrigation system with a few inconveniences:
This is because all batteries are based on a chemical reaction and the colder the temperature the less energy there will be in the atoms. Below 0C the batteries will probably die very quickly in use, but they will last longer if stored this way - I hope that makes sense!.....
Having seen this stated previously as a cast-iron fact (and I do not dispute the theory), I remain forever in awe of the cheap alkalines used here surviving -20 winters and 36 degree summers...
Possibly the type of temperature ?
The biggest voltage drop found here was when the Gateway crashed and the Node attempted to contact a dead end.... ;)
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@skywatch said in Help for an irrigation system with a few inconveniences:
This is because all batteries are based on a chemical reaction and the colder the temperature the less energy there will be in the atoms. Below 0C the batteries will probably die very quickly in use, but they will last longer if stored this way - I hope that makes sense!.....
Having seen this stated previously as a cast-iron fact (and I do not dispute the theory), I remain forever in awe of the cheap alkalines used here surviving -20 winters and 36 degree summers...
Possibly the type of temperature ?
The biggest voltage drop found here was when the Gateway crashed and the Node attempted to contact a dead end.... ;)
@zboblamont There are so many different types of battery with different chemical components that it is harder now to generalise, but I believe that the physics of it still hold true.
It is the reason that your smoke alarm battery nearly always sounds the warning beeps at night. That's due to nighttime temperatures being lower and as the cell reaches it's last dribble of energy the temperature variation is enough to lower the voltage when the cell cools.
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@zboblamont There are so many different types of battery with different chemical components that it is harder now to generalise, but I believe that the physics of it still hold true.
It is the reason that your smoke alarm battery nearly always sounds the warning beeps at night. That's due to nighttime temperatures being lower and as the cell reaches it's last dribble of energy the temperature variation is enough to lower the voltage when the cell cools.
@skywatch I'm no chemistry engineer, but this generalisation I've heard said previously as an undisputed fact, hence my posting last year's voltage record for one of the most exposed nodes...
The decay is no greater than with any of the internal nodes, and with last winter down to -20 you might expect evidence of it, yet the cheap standard alkalines sailed through it unperturbed..
The voltage drop for a month in summer failing to connect to the Gateway was colossal by comparison, hence the UPS went up my priority list...
;) -
@skywatch I'm no chemistry engineer, but this generalisation I've heard said previously as an undisputed fact, hence my posting last year's voltage record for one of the most exposed nodes...
The decay is no greater than with any of the internal nodes, and with last winter down to -20 you might expect evidence of it, yet the cheap standard alkalines sailed through it unperturbed..
The voltage drop for a month in summer failing to connect to the Gateway was colossal by comparison, hence the UPS went up my priority list...
;)@zboblamont said in Help for an irrigation system with a few inconveniences:
I can't really add more to this other than to say that if the batteries in the remote won't work, warm them under your armpits for a few minutes and try again - I bet they work! ;)
The voltage drop for a month in summer failing to connect to the Gateway was colossal by comparison, hence the UPS went up my priority list...
;)Won't a UPS have a battery in it too? :)
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@zboblamont said in Help for an irrigation system with a few inconveniences:
I can't really add more to this other than to say that if the batteries in the remote won't work, warm them under your armpits for a few minutes and try again - I bet they work! ;)
The voltage drop for a month in summer failing to connect to the Gateway was colossal by comparison, hence the UPS went up my priority list...
;)Won't a UPS have a battery in it too? :)
@skywatch "I can't really add more to this other than to say that if the batteries in the remote won't work, warm them under your armpits for a few minutes and try again - I bet they work!" - For the cost of a few cells? I'm Scottish, but presume you know it was the Scots who invented copper wire by fighting over a penny....
Yep Lead/Acid gel on the UPS for the Gateway/Controller, but that's indoors where it is generously warm even when it's Siberian outside...
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I have nothing more to post but thank you all for the answers. I will have a look at how to get power from the house to the garden as @skywatch suggested. Also, I will see how to place a pole in the garden, similar to the beautiful node of @zboblamont. By the way, it looks very nice!
Finally, I have seen the GPRS and I also have one at home so, I definitely will give it a chance in this Ethan Hunt's project haha
Thank you all again!
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I have nothing more to post but thank you all for the answers. I will have a look at how to get power from the house to the garden as @skywatch suggested. Also, I will see how to place a pole in the garden, similar to the beautiful node of @zboblamont. By the way, it looks very nice!
Finally, I have seen the GPRS and I also have one at home so, I definitely will give it a chance in this Ethan Hunt's project haha
Thank you all again!
@ancalotoru Please do let us know how you get on - and some pictures of the project would be nice too! :)
Good Luck!
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I have nothing more to post but thank you all for the answers. I will have a look at how to get power from the house to the garden as @skywatch suggested. Also, I will see how to place a pole in the garden, similar to the beautiful node of @zboblamont. By the way, it looks very nice!
Finally, I have seen the GPRS and I also have one at home so, I definitely will give it a chance in this Ethan Hunt's project haha
Thank you all again!
@ancalotoru The power demand will probably be dictated by the valve box operating at a different voltage, but since it was designed for battery power it should not be huge.
Agree with @skywatch recommendation of a PSU if it is viable but perhaps look at battery backup also if you get power cuts as were the bain of my life here...
Looking forward to your finalised pictures, good luck... -
@ancalotoru The power demand will probably be dictated by the valve box operating at a different voltage, but since it was designed for battery power it should not be huge.
Agree with @skywatch recommendation of a PSU if it is viable but perhaps look at battery backup also if you get power cuts as were the bain of my life here...
Looking forward to your finalised pictures, good luck...@zboblamont @skywatch I am looking forward to post tons of pictures and a full tutorial with code and electronics. I will get all the pieces in September so I will have to wait for a month....
Besides I have a question. Is better to have a 9v batteries to run the valves and then regulate its voltage to 3.3v in order to run all the sensors and the arduino, or is better to have two separated batteries? One for the arduino node and another exclusive one to drive the valves
Thank you!
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Hello,
I have worked with a lot of home irrigation equipment including both AC line-powered relays and a little with battery-powered 9vDC latching relays. I understand you are interested in learning MySensors, Arduino, etc. It appears that you could easily get a reliable wired commercial irrigation controller and valves working quickly and at low cost. The main reason to use this approach in my opinion is your major requirement - reliability. But also, speed and cost.
I have worked with hobby electronics for many years, and many hundreds of hours with MySensors and related electronics, and thousands of hours of software development. I use commercial irrigation controllers because I would never be able to build one as reliable even if I had unlimited time to do it. Even if building, writing code, and testing was done, something designed and built wll not have controls, display, and functions anything like a commercial unit.
I suggest you make your first MySensors/etc. project only for the sensors you want. This is challenging enough for your first project since you mention you are not experienced with electronics. It is better to learn to walk before you learn to run!
One example of this difficulty: have you bench-tested using an Arduino to activate/deactivate a latching 9vDC irrigation valve? They are not at all like an ordinary relay. If you can do this, I am impressed at what you have learned.
In your situation suggest you put a commercial AC mains to 24vAC powered irrigation controller (USA $50-$100) at your house with a cable to your valve box, and use non-latching 24vAC valves. If you must use 9vDC battery-powered valves, or must locate the controller underground (no way to use buried cable) you can buy commercial battery powered valves with built-in control for each valve (USA $25-$50 each), or a commercial battery powered controller for multiple valves. (brands: DIG, Orbit, Rain Bird, Hunter).
I apologize if it sounds like I am trying to discourage you. I am not! But I encourage you to start with a simpler project as it is hard enough to get your first working project even if you are only building one sensor or relay!
Good luck!
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@zboblamont @skywatch I am looking forward to post tons of pictures and a full tutorial with code and electronics. I will get all the pieces in September so I will have to wait for a month....
Besides I have a question. Is better to have a 9v batteries to run the valves and then regulate its voltage to 3.3v in order to run all the sensors and the arduino, or is better to have two separated batteries? One for the arduino node and another exclusive one to drive the valves
Thank you!
@ancalotoru said in Help for an irrigation system with a few inconveniences:
@zboblamont @skywatch I am looking forward to post tons of pictures and a full tutorial with code and electronics. I will get all the pieces in September so I will have to wait for a month....
Besides I have a question. Is better to have a 9v batteries to run the valves and then regulate its voltage to 3.3v in order to run all the sensors and the arduino, or is better to have two separated batteries? One for the arduino node and another exclusive one to drive the valves
Thank you!ed
I would suggest no. It may seem initially energy economito consolidate supplies, but a separate supply for the Node ensures it tells you when the 9v valve supply is getting close to failure to enable change-out before failure. If you are irrigating twice a day, that gives you a 12 hour minimum to change the valve actuator battery.
If you look at the mAh capacity of a PP3 v AA the lfespans are starkly different ;).
Your original control was built as a 9v remote head (?), it stands to reason that a quick low voltage burst to relay/fet the 9v battery at the "Node" should be sufficient to drive the latching valves, secure yet energy separated.
Hope that makes sense... -
@ancalotoru said in Help for an irrigation system with a few inconveniences:
@zboblamont @skywatch I am looking forward to post tons of pictures and a full tutorial with code and electronics. I will get all the pieces in September so I will have to wait for a month....
Besides I have a question. Is better to have a 9v batteries to run the valves and then regulate its voltage to 3.3v in order to run all the sensors and the arduino, or is better to have two separated batteries? One for the arduino node and another exclusive one to drive the valves
Thank you!ed
I would suggest no. It may seem initially energy economito consolidate supplies, but a separate supply for the Node ensures it tells you when the 9v valve supply is getting close to failure to enable change-out before failure. If you are irrigating twice a day, that gives you a 12 hour minimum to change the valve actuator battery.
If you look at the mAh capacity of a PP3 v AA the lfespans are starkly different ;).
Your original control was built as a 9v remote head (?), it stands to reason that a quick low voltage burst to relay/fet the 9v battery at the "Node" should be sufficient to drive the latching valves, secure yet energy separated.
Hope that makes sense...@zboblamont Ok thank you! I will keep it with two batteries then.
The original controller was running on one single 9V battery so maybe Rain Bird should revise that security possible issue :smile:
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Hello,
I have worked with a lot of home irrigation equipment including both AC line-powered relays and a little with battery-powered 9vDC latching relays. I understand you are interested in learning MySensors, Arduino, etc. It appears that you could easily get a reliable wired commercial irrigation controller and valves working quickly and at low cost. The main reason to use this approach in my opinion is your major requirement - reliability. But also, speed and cost.
I have worked with hobby electronics for many years, and many hundreds of hours with MySensors and related electronics, and thousands of hours of software development. I use commercial irrigation controllers because I would never be able to build one as reliable even if I had unlimited time to do it. Even if building, writing code, and testing was done, something designed and built wll not have controls, display, and functions anything like a commercial unit.
I suggest you make your first MySensors/etc. project only for the sensors you want. This is challenging enough for your first project since you mention you are not experienced with electronics. It is better to learn to walk before you learn to run!
One example of this difficulty: have you bench-tested using an Arduino to activate/deactivate a latching 9vDC irrigation valve? They are not at all like an ordinary relay. If you can do this, I am impressed at what you have learned.
In your situation suggest you put a commercial AC mains to 24vAC powered irrigation controller (USA $50-$100) at your house with a cable to your valve box, and use non-latching 24vAC valves. If you must use 9vDC battery-powered valves, or must locate the controller underground (no way to use buried cable) you can buy commercial battery powered valves with built-in control for each valve (USA $25-$50 each), or a commercial battery powered controller for multiple valves. (brands: DIG, Orbit, Rain Bird, Hunter).
I apologize if it sounds like I am trying to discourage you. I am not! But I encourage you to start with a simpler project as it is hard enough to get your first working project even if you are only building one sensor or relay!
Good luck!
@grubstake Thank you for your comments! You are totally right, I will probably never get the same quality as a aftermarket unit. I will just give it a try, see if works and if not, buy a new one.
I have been working with arduino for years but I am a newbe with electronics. I do not know how electronics work in the sense of physical phenomenas and so on. However, I know how to switch a valve with an arduino (that was the very first test) and many other operations like, read an analog sensor etc.
Regarding the coding, I hope that my degree in computer science helps haha
Furthermore, I have to say that I am really interested in mysensors because I would like to store as much data about my garden as I can. Why? Because I am currently doing a PhD in Artificial intelligence and going through all the steps of data science is kind a useful stuff
Hope I can post more advances soon! Thank you all
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Hi there!
I have been doing some electronics and here is my thoughts about how to connect things. Any help will be very welcomed. My idea is to create a PCB after testing everything on a breadboard.
!
