Anyone tried the Creality CR-10 3D printer?
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If I'm understanding correctly, the main argument in favor of the hypercube is that it can print without ringing at a faster rate than an i3 design and that it's easier to enclose because it already has a box-like frame. However, if I'm understanding @executivul correctly, none of the existing hotends, not even a Volcano, can print faster than an i3 anyway. Right? So, then I guess the argument is that maybe, at some time in the future, more capable hotends will emerge, at which time a hypercube owner will be better positioned to upgrade to a faster printing machine than, say, an i3 owner. Does that pretty much sum up the argument in favor of the hypercube (i.e. corexy design)? Or is there more to it than that?
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the speed and melting limitation was regarding nozzle size I think. you could set print speed faster, if using 0.4mm nozzle vs 0.8mm.
And it would be easier with a volcano, as heat chamber is wider than classic hotend (e3dv6..).
Example:- For technical parts, that I need quickly, or stronger, with a good aspect but less details: 0.8mm nozzle with 0.5mm layer is good compromise for me. Result is nice and print time saved is great. (slower speed at max, but gorgeous extrusion).
- For finer things and details, I use <= 0.4mm nozzle, and <= 0.3 layer. Great result, but more print time, even with more speed, because of finer extrusion.
Depends what you want to make. You may need to print slower with petg than with pla etc.
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the speed and melting limitation was regarding nozzle size I think. you could set print speed faster, if using 0.4mm nozzle vs 0.8mm.
And it would be easier with a volcano, as heat chamber is wider than classic hotend (e3dv6..).
Example:- For technical parts, that I need quickly, or stronger, with a good aspect but less details: 0.8mm nozzle with 0.5mm layer is good compromise for me. Result is nice and print time saved is great. (slower speed at max, but gorgeous extrusion).
- For finer things and details, I use <= 0.4mm nozzle, and <= 0.3 layer. Great result, but more print time, even with more speed, because of finer extrusion.
Depends what you want to make. You may need to print slower with petg than with pla etc.
@scalz I'm trying to arrive at an apples-to-apples comparison between an i3 (let's assume Prusa i3 Mk3) and a corexy (let's assume Hypercube unless you want to name something different). So, assuming they are outfitted with the same size nozzles, etc., can a corexy print faster than an i3 without losing print quality as compared to what the i3 can produce at its fastest (non-ringing) speed?
If there's a better way to compare the two, then I'm open to that. So far what I've heard is that a hypercube can move faster without ringing than an i3, and so I'm wondering what, if any, tangible advantage that translates into when it comes to actual, practical use.
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My Anet A8 came stock with a 0.4mm nozzle. I have never tried anything larger, but I know you can purchase nozzles down to 0.1mm. What size filament does the Volcano use? Standard these days is 1.75mm, but many of the older 3D printer used 3mm. I have worke don an old BFB 3D Touch at our school district where I work and that uses 3mm Filament.
I have printed PETG at up to 80mm/s, but the quality wasn't near as good as when I printed slower like 40mm/s. The one thing I like about using PETG is that you get a similar strength to ABS, but you don't need the higher bed temps to print it. I print PETG at bed temps of 60°c to 70°c. I have on occasion gotten some corner lifting with PETG on larger prints, but overall not bad. Depends on what you have on your bed for the print surface.
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@scalz I'm trying to arrive at an apples-to-apples comparison between an i3 (let's assume Prusa i3 Mk3) and a corexy (let's assume Hypercube unless you want to name something different). So, assuming they are outfitted with the same size nozzles, etc., can a corexy print faster than an i3 without losing print quality as compared to what the i3 can produce at its fastest (non-ringing) speed?
If there's a better way to compare the two, then I'm open to that. So far what I've heard is that a hypercube can move faster without ringing than an i3, and so I'm wondering what, if any, tangible advantage that translates into when it comes to actual, practical use.
@neverdie What kind of print speeds are you going for. The quality at higher speeds I think depends largely on the rigidity of the frame of the printer. Somehting like mine which is considered an I3 clone which is an open frame printer vs something like you mentioned, a hypercube is going to be different.
Vera Plus running UI7 with MySensors, Sonoffs and 1-Wire devices
Visit my website for more Bits, Bytes and Ramblings from me: http://dan.bemowski.info/ -
@neverdie What kind of print speeds are you going for. The quality at higher speeds I think depends largely on the rigidity of the frame of the printer. Somehting like mine which is considered an I3 clone which is an open frame printer vs something like you mentioned, a hypercube is going to be different.
@dbemowsk I'm just trying (and apparently failing) to understand why someone would want to own a hypercube instead of an i3. OK, so the frame on a hypercube is more rigid. So....what? Does it do better prints? Does it do the same prints faster? i.e. why do I care? Even if the i3's frame isn't as rigid, maybe it's already rigid enough that being more rigid has no discernable advantage.
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Anyhow, partly for family reasons, I think I'm probably going to order the Prusa I3 MK3, even though production is backlogged with orders. 1. It seems more kid friendly than what else I've seen, and 2. its very low noise means I can run it at night without waking anyone up. My wife did not at all like the noise my CNC makes even during the day, so that's partly why it was banished to the garage. Maybe we can run the Prusa inside the house, provided there exist print filaments that are non-toxic when used for 3D printing (I haven't yet looked into that, but maybe PETG is one such filament).
The other, new reason, now is that maybe I can leverage Tom's research on filament properties. I hope I can be fairly confident of getting the same results as him, provided I use the same print profiles as what worked best for him on a particular filament. Since he's using an MK2 to develop his data, the results should translate very nicely. I'm hoping this could save me a lot of testing and trial-and-error.
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@dbemowsk I'm just trying (and apparently failing) to understand why someone would want to own a hypercube instead of an i3. OK, so the frame on a hypercube is more rigid. So....what? Does it do better prints? Does it do the same prints faster? i.e. why do I care? Even if the i3's frame isn't as rigid, maybe it's already rigid enough that being more rigid has no discernable advantage.
@neverdie I didn't realize that was your reasoning behind the questions. One nice thing about owning a 3d printer like the I3 is that even though it may not be quite as rigid, you can print parts to make it more rigid. I saw this meme on the Anet group that I am on on Facebook: You buy a 3D printer to print a 3D printer and then return the one you bought.
There was the talk of printing in ABS and PETG. Using the I3, you should be able to print ABS if you build an enclosure. As for PETG. that you should be able to print fine straight out of the box.
Vera Plus running UI7 with MySensors, Sonoffs and 1-Wire devices
Visit my website for more Bits, Bytes and Ramblings from me: http://dan.bemowski.info/ -
@neverdie I didn't realize that was your reasoning behind the questions. One nice thing about owning a 3d printer like the I3 is that even though it may not be quite as rigid, you can print parts to make it more rigid. I saw this meme on the Anet group that I am on on Facebook: You buy a 3D printer to print a 3D printer and then return the one you bought.
There was the talk of printing in ABS and PETG. Using the I3, you should be able to print ABS if you build an enclosure. As for PETG. that you should be able to print fine straight out of the box.
@dbemowsk said in Anyone tried the Creality CR-10 3D printer?:
You buy a 3D printer to print a 3D printer and then return the one you bought.
LOL. Very funny!
And from what I've seen in reviews, the corollary to that would be: buy a 3D printer that, even if it's bad, is at least good enough to print the parts needed to eventually make itself print well.
Looked at that way, 3D printers are a marriage made in heaven as the remedy for sub-par Chinese quality. :grin:
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@NeverDie maybe because i3 design is common, for people watching.. I can see a big kossel behind him ;)
regarding print strength, another vid if you're interested, it's about volcano hotend.
at 8:10
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=93LJui-pC2Qstrength should not be influenced so much by the printer I think, except its calibration, important. Strength can be improved with the right filament, hotend+nozzle size+settings, and the way the object is printed (for exemple if force would be applied in same direction as printed layers then it could delaminate).
Cool, curious to see whether you'll buy one, and which one :nerd_face: I feel you have a preference for prusa :)
It would be cool to have a printer that had both a regular hotend (for finely detailed print jobs) and a volcano hotend installed on it. Maybe then changing from one to the other might be as easy as changing which one gets get fed the filament.
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It would be cool to have a printer that had both a regular hotend (for finely detailed print jobs) and a volcano hotend installed on it. Maybe then changing from one to the other might be as easy as changing which one gets get fed the filament.
@neverdie I use XT60 and JST connectors on my hotends, 2 minutes job to replace, including heating and removing filament.
You seem to get the strong points of a cube design, speed, sturdiness and "enclosability".
The kinematics can be corexy or simple cartesian (flsun cube) or even wicked gantrys like the ultimaker.
As long as you are near the 30-35mm^3(cubic)/sec melting limit of the Volcano heatblock you are maxed out and can't go any faster in speed. Knowing that usual layer height is nozzle diameter/2 and layer width is 1.2nozzle diameter, divide the more realistic 30mm^3/sec to the widthheight and see the max speed you can achieve. That should determine the type of printer you use. Also remember the max speed is achieved only at long straight moves, acceleration plays a huge role, and accelerating a big heated bed with glass on top is not easy, while throwing around a light bowden hotend on a corexy is a breeze. Like comparing a narrow, curvy, mountain road for a big truck vs a sports car.
The noise is dependent on the drivers, use tmc2100 or later (2108, 2130, etc) and all noise is gone. What control board to use is a whole new story. -
It would be cool to have a printer that had both a regular hotend (for finely detailed print jobs) and a volcano hotend installed on it. Maybe then changing from one to the other might be as easy as changing which one gets get fed the filament.
@neverdie said in Anyone tried the Creality CR-10 3D printer?:
It would be cool to have a printer that had both a regular hotend (for finely detailed print jobs) and a volcano hotend installed on it. Maybe then changing from one to the other might be as easy as changing which one gets get fed the filament.
Funny you should mention that. At the school district where I work we have some Makerbot 3D printers. These use the Makerbot Smart Extruders. I can literally change the extruder in less than 10 seconds. I don't know if they have different types of extruders, but that would be nice.
The back is magnetic (the four rounded tabs) with a spring loaded header and a locking shaft for the extruder motor (left of the pin header). Once your filament is unloaded, you literally pull the extruder off, and snap the new one on. If they had different extruder assemblies, it would be an easy change. Problem is, one extruder assembly costs just over $200 US. -
@neverdie I use XT60 and JST connectors on my hotends, 2 minutes job to replace, including heating and removing filament.
You seem to get the strong points of a cube design, speed, sturdiness and "enclosability".
The kinematics can be corexy or simple cartesian (flsun cube) or even wicked gantrys like the ultimaker.
As long as you are near the 30-35mm^3(cubic)/sec melting limit of the Volcano heatblock you are maxed out and can't go any faster in speed. Knowing that usual layer height is nozzle diameter/2 and layer width is 1.2nozzle diameter, divide the more realistic 30mm^3/sec to the widthheight and see the max speed you can achieve. That should determine the type of printer you use. Also remember the max speed is achieved only at long straight moves, acceleration plays a huge role, and accelerating a big heated bed with glass on top is not easy, while throwing around a light bowden hotend on a corexy is a breeze. Like comparing a narrow, curvy, mountain road for a big truck vs a sports car.
The noise is dependent on the drivers, use tmc2100 or later (2108, 2130, etc) and all noise is gone. What control board to use is a whole new story.@executivul said in Anyone tried the Creality CR-10 3D printer?:
As long as you are near the 30-35mm^3(cubic)/sec melting limit of the Volcano heatblock you are maxed out and can't go any faster in speed. Knowing that usual layer height is nozzle diameter/2 and layer width is 1.2nozzle diameter, divide the more realistic 30mm^3/sec to the widthheight and see the max speed you can achieve.
Based on those assumptions, I calculate 41.7mm/sec as the max speed.
@executivul said in Anyone tried the Creality CR-10 3D printer?:
accelerating a big heated bed with glass on top is not easy, while throwing around a light bowden hotend on a corexy is a breeze.
Well, that does make sense. So, if a corexy has a faster print speed, I guess it will be coming from that. So, what kind of print speed improvement (as compared to an i3 design) does that typically translate into? By that I mean, is it typically, say, a 10% improvement, or is it as much as a 400% improvement?
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@executivul said in Anyone tried the Creality CR-10 3D printer?:
As long as you are near the 30-35mm^3(cubic)/sec melting limit of the Volcano heatblock you are maxed out and can't go any faster in speed. Knowing that usual layer height is nozzle diameter/2 and layer width is 1.2nozzle diameter, divide the more realistic 30mm^3/sec to the widthheight and see the max speed you can achieve.
Based on those assumptions, I calculate 41.7mm/sec as the max speed.
@executivul said in Anyone tried the Creality CR-10 3D printer?:
accelerating a big heated bed with glass on top is not easy, while throwing around a light bowden hotend on a corexy is a breeze.
Well, that does make sense. So, if a corexy has a faster print speed, I guess it will be coming from that. So, what kind of print speed improvement (as compared to an i3 design) does that typically translate into? By that I mean, is it typically, say, a 10% improvement, or is it as much as a 400% improvement?
@neverdie that depends entirely on the part you print, big simple square piece, no cutouts equals less difference. Complicate parts, lots of direction changes, equals more time savings. Remember every printer will print slower than what the slicer estimates, slicers don't take acceleration time into account usually, or they use a very conservative value.
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there are so much settings, and "little" things to know that's not easy to explain everything :)
Volcano is simply an extended e3dv6, maybe 1cm taller. You could just buy the volcano heatblock and nozzles and update an e3d. I have a lot of spares parts for hotends, handy.
It has a bigger heatblock=you can push more filament in it, and if you don't need a 0.2mm and very fine details, that can save a lot of time, like divide by 2 print timeAbout printers, well, I already exposed my points. When i started, I hesitated to build an i3 Steel (i wanted something sturdy, I prefer sturdy/fast/precise CNC's machines, makes sense to me for a good start). Remember the first commercial slow color ink printers 20-25 years ago??
So I was going back&forth, read a lot, asked for advices to a few gurus on reprap forums, and finally I thank them and am happy with my choice. But this a choice by a "maker" (not "afraid" to build/study new things) + I like good stuff.. and it cost me less than an original prusa! approx 350, 2years ago.imho, what I "don't like" in the hypercube is:
- rods and LMUU : I prefer vwheels like on the dbot printer (cheap vwheel on ali). With the slots acting as linear guides and replacing rods, it gets more sturdy
- the X axis with its vertical rods which is the same on prusa though.. not the best if you have weight on your gantry. Here, I use bowden setup, so it's lighter&faster to move. but I'm not fan of this vertical rods strategy especially for direct drive. that can work, but can be limiting too at a moment.
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@neverdie I use XT60 and JST connectors on my hotends, 2 minutes job to replace, including heating and removing filament.
You seem to get the strong points of a cube design, speed, sturdiness and "enclosability".
The kinematics can be corexy or simple cartesian (flsun cube) or even wicked gantrys like the ultimaker.
As long as you are near the 30-35mm^3(cubic)/sec melting limit of the Volcano heatblock you are maxed out and can't go any faster in speed. Knowing that usual layer height is nozzle diameter/2 and layer width is 1.2nozzle diameter, divide the more realistic 30mm^3/sec to the widthheight and see the max speed you can achieve. That should determine the type of printer you use. Also remember the max speed is achieved only at long straight moves, acceleration plays a huge role, and accelerating a big heated bed with glass on top is not easy, while throwing around a light bowden hotend on a corexy is a breeze. Like comparing a narrow, curvy, mountain road for a big truck vs a sports car.
The noise is dependent on the drivers, use tmc2100 or later (2108, 2130, etc) and all noise is gone. What control board to use is a whole new story.@executivul
Are you using a thermocouple rather than the thermistor on your hotend? Since the E3D V6 has the capability of reaching thermistor destroying temperatures, I don't understand why a thermocouple isn't the default. I guess because it's not as accurate or something? If so, how is the lower accuracy of the thermocouple managed? -
@executivul
Are you using a thermocouple rather than the thermistor on your hotend? Since the E3D V6 has the capability of reaching thermistor destroying temperatures, I don't understand why a thermocouple isn't the default. I guess because it's not as accurate or something? If so, how is the lower accuracy of the thermocouple managed?@neverdie To be honest I use the cheap thermistors that came with the e3d clones I keep buying on ali.
I don't care about accuracy, I print a temptower and decide the best value for a filament lot that I buy and a nozzle/heatblock I intend to use. A full metal heatbreak is all you need, a teflon lined heatbreak tops at 240-260°C, the thermistor can go up to 300°C, ABS needs 240°C at most, PETG 220°C, PLA 200°C. -
@executivul
Are you using a thermocouple rather than the thermistor on your hotend? Since the E3D V6 has the capability of reaching thermistor destroying temperatures, I don't understand why a thermocouple isn't the default. I guess because it's not as accurate or something? If so, how is the lower accuracy of the thermocouple managed?@neverdie I don't know what the limit is for a thermister, but depending on the material you are printing, be it ABS, PETG or the like, these should not exceed 260°c. I typically print my ABS and PETG at around 240°c and have never had any issues with the thermister. Boards that run skynet or marlin as their firmware should have thermal runaway enabled.
