Everything nRF52840
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Hi,
I've recently purchased a couple of the nrf52840 dongles and was searching web for ways to flash them and came across this post. I am a complete NOOB with this stuff, so I've found the information here really useful, so thanks to all who have contributed.
During my searches, I can across this; HOME SMART MESH (https://www.homesmartmesh.com/). It seems very similar to what MySensors is doing, but geared towards nrf5 hardware. Was wondering if you had seem this before, or had any thoughts on the project re: pros and cons?
@wormhole I took a quick look at this HomeSmartMesh project and it's certainly interesting.
However, the MySensors project is more mature, has a large community, supports more MCU's and sensors and many HW projects are using/supporting it. It also supports nRF51 and nRF52 MCU's already to a certain extent (I guess using the internal nRF24 radio protocol and external RF chips like RFM69/95).
Beside that, it supports also a couple of home automations suite like FEHM, OpenHAB etc.
I'm currently on OpenHAB 2.3 using the MySensors Gateway for OpenHAB.
I think it would be rather a good idea, that we get the new nRF52840 features and RF protocols supported by MySensors (such as the BLE 5.0 with the long range feature).
We had already the discussions on IEEE 802.15.4 / Thread / Zigbee which are also great for home automation. The question was also, if we can/should include it in MySensors or are these competing technology stacks to MySensors.
I personally like the MySensors project, because it project a good development infrastructure with a lot of supported/preconfigures sensors which makes it quite easy to creates sensor nodes..
Now we are exploring how to best integrate and use the nRF52840 boards. NeverDie seem to be quite ahead of us and exploring also micropython option (not sure how far that fits into the MySensors concept :-) -
I now have working OTA update code for micropython programs on the nRF52840. I posted it on github: https://github.com/rabbithat/NRF52840_MicroPython_OTA_Updates
:sunglasses:
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I now have working OTA update code for micropython programs on the nRF52840. I posted it on github: https://github.com/rabbithat/NRF52840_MicroPython_OTA_Updates
:sunglasses:
@neverdie You are a hero :-) Now the question is of course what comes next? Do you see any chance to get some of the findings implemented into the MySensors project? or will it be a completly new nRF52840 thread/story? Like using ZigBee or BLE 5.0 long range (remember the discussion we had with @scalz if it makes sense to use MySensors aor use a full standard stack like ZigBee or BLE 5.0).
What are your thoughts and plans? Best option to build sensor nodes/actors with nRF52840? -
@neverdie You are a hero :-) Now the question is of course what comes next? Do you see any chance to get some of the findings implemented into the MySensors project? or will it be a completly new nRF52840 thread/story? Like using ZigBee or BLE 5.0 long range (remember the discussion we had with @scalz if it makes sense to use MySensors aor use a full standard stack like ZigBee or BLE 5.0).
What are your thoughts and plans? Best option to build sensor nodes/actors with nRF52840?@heinzv said in Everything nRF52840:
@neverdie You are a hero :-) Now the question is of course what comes next? Do you see any chance to get some of the findings implemented into the MySensors project? or will it be a completly new nRF52840 thread/story? Like using ZigBee or BLE 5.0 long range (remember the discussion we had with @scalz if it makes sense to use MySensors aor use a full standard stack like ZigBee or BLE 5.0).
What are your thoughts and plans? Best option to build sensor nodes/actors with nRF52840?Well, as the saying goes, Rome wasn't built in day. I think there's no doubt that MySensors could be built using MicroPython, but right now there is no Rome and there's barely even a camp site. It's all just green fields and a few scattered tents. Also, I am just one person, and this is still early days. My near-term plan is to improve the OTA code to make it faster and more efficient. Right now, perhaps ironically, maybe the only reason to prefer Micropython over C is the existence of this OTA code. If someone writes an OTA bootloader for the nRF52840 in C, maybe that reason goes away. I might have done that instead, but this seemed a shorter path to getting an OTA.
In the end, programming the nRF52840 is, at this stage, almost like writing micro code. In other words, it almost doesn't matter which language you pick (provided it has an OTA updater), because the focus ends up being the same: fiddling with the registers and programming the PPI in order to get the highest efficiency.
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@heinzv said in Everything nRF52840:
@neverdie You are a hero :-) Now the question is of course what comes next? Do you see any chance to get some of the findings implemented into the MySensors project? or will it be a completly new nRF52840 thread/story? Like using ZigBee or BLE 5.0 long range (remember the discussion we had with @scalz if it makes sense to use MySensors aor use a full standard stack like ZigBee or BLE 5.0).
What are your thoughts and plans? Best option to build sensor nodes/actors with nRF52840?Well, as the saying goes, Rome wasn't built in day. I think there's no doubt that MySensors could be built using MicroPython, but right now there is no Rome and there's barely even a camp site. It's all just green fields and a few scattered tents. Also, I am just one person, and this is still early days. My near-term plan is to improve the OTA code to make it faster and more efficient. Right now, perhaps ironically, maybe the only reason to prefer Micropython over C is the existence of this OTA code. If someone writes an OTA bootloader for the nRF52840 in C, maybe that reason goes away. I might have done that instead, but this seemed a shorter path to getting an OTA.
In the end, programming the nRF52840 is, at this stage, almost like writing micro code. In other words, it almost doesn't matter which language you pick (provided it has an OTA updater), because the focus ends up being the same: fiddling with the registers and programming the PPI in order to get the highest efficiency.
@neverdie sure, I did not epect Rome to be built in one day by one person :-) I was just curiuos in which direction you're heading.
If the OTA feature is one of the key features, I was thinking of using a couple of information provided by Nordic such as as details on the OTA/flashing process of the nRF52 as well as the OTA DFU bootloader example provided as part of the 15.2 SDK.OTA/Flash process
https://infocenter.nordicsemi.com/index.jsp?topic=%2Fcom.nordic.infocenter.sdk52.v0.9.0%2Fbledfu_architecture.html
http://infocenter.nordicsemi.com/index.jsp?topic=%2Fcom.nordic.infocenter.tools%2Fdita%2Ftools%2FnRF_Connect%2FnRF_Connect_DFU.htmlOTA/Flash sources in C/C++
Just a few thoughts (I have to investiage) if we could use the sequence from the bootloader examples and they used libs for receiving data/code and initialized the flash process using the provided libraries
nRF5_SDK_15.2.0\components\libraries\bootloader
here I see in the dfu sub-dir the required function to observer, receiver and flash codeThere a multiple examples how the code is transfered: via USB/serial, BLE/Zigbee, ANT ... and I guess we could use also the nRF24 protocol. Also encryption functions are available in the samples (secure dfu bootloader).
We need to derive, what nee to be done on the sender side to start to set the target to dfu mode and initiate the code transfer. Maybe that is also a tricky task.
Do you see that this approach can work and could be added to own C/C++ sketches and thus also added the MySensors project (of coure we need to include and use the required nRF52 libs for dfu)?
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I don't doubt that it can be done. The amount of effort? It could be a little or a lot. I just don't know.
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By the way, I now have the micropython code in a state where it is more easily demoed: https://github.com/rabbithat/NRF52840_MicroPython_OTA_Updates
Rather than continuing to post here about it, I'll just make future updates there. So, if anyone here is interested in it, you may want to check the github repository from time to time. :spock-hand:
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You can now buy the USB-stick version for $22 on Aliexpress without shipping.
http://www.aliexpress.com/item/NRF52840-Dongle/32946349826.html
For $15 there is an expansion-less USB-stick:
http://www.aliexpress.com/item/Nordic-nRF52840-BLE-dongle-bluetooth-4-0-bluetooth-5-0-for-computer/32951812498.htmlLittle dev boards for $30:
http://www.aliexpress.com/item/NRF52840-Development-board-Bluetooth-5-Bluetooth-low-power-consumption/32935228197.htmlAnd this interesting dev board for $33:
http://www.aliexpress.com/item/Nrf52840-development-board/32921005555.htmlAnd a larger one with integrated ESP32 for $42:
http://www.aliexpress.com/item/Nrf52840-development-board-ESP32-development-board-Mini/32921001572.html -
@NeverDie Thanks for your time and good work! :+1:
I was thinking on start fiddling with the nrf52, but after the reading I don't know if I would handle it. -
Do you think this board could be used for a wifi gateway?
https://es.aliexpress.com/store/product/Nrf52840-development-board-ESP32-development-board-Mini/2956052_32921001572.html -
Do you think this board could be used for a wifi gateway?
https://es.aliexpress.com/store/product/Nrf52840-development-board-ESP32-development-board-Mini/2956052_32921001572.html@sergio-rius Assuming they're connected, I'd like to say yes, but I don't know how they're wired, so if that's all there is to go on... it's a cat in a bag.
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For those who haven't yet tried it, platformio has an "arduino" mode where it can program an nRF52840 very much along the lines that you would an arduino. Since it supports the nRF52840, I'd say it's a natural upgrade from the Sandeep Mistry library, which you don't really need to use anymore if you don't want to (though maybe it's still relevant for mySensor's compatability). At least to me, platformio seems much easier to use and much less of a learning curve than Segger Embedded Systems, Eclipse, or MBed. For anyone used to Arduino, it will seem very familiar.
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Has anyone been able to send a packet with a payload of greater than 85 bytes using an nRF52832/nRF52840? According to the datasheet, a 255 byte payload should be possible. Yet, even if I set MAXLEN to 255, the payload seems to be truncated at 85 bytes. So, I'm curious as to why I'm not able to get a larger payload transmitted, and thus I'm wondering whether anyone else here has succeeded at it.
Anyone?
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Sorry for cross-posting.
I started with nRF52 a few days ago. I have the Nordic nRF52 SDK board (PCA10056) with a nRF52840 operational as a MySensors serial gateway together with Home Assistant on a RaspberryPI (with Hass.io). I am using the Arduino nRF5 and the sandeepmistry nRF5 board libraries.
Some issues:
- It looks like it only works in debug mode. But in debug mode, both debug messages and gateway messages appear on the usb port. Homes Assistant is not confused by the debug messages.
- Leds are not working.
- The programmer on the Arduino IDE is not working for me ("No J-Link" error, while there is a J-Link interface available), so I export a HEX fle form Arduino IDE and program the board with the nRFConnect tool from Nordic.In order to solve the issues above, I installed the Segger environment. With the board you get a free license from Nordic and you can do some fancy debugging. I also looked at Keil but that is a no-go for me. With Segger, I can upload a simple Blink example from Nordic to the board an debug it. I am now struggling with importing the MySensors library sources in Segger. If someone did this before, please let me know (!). Once this is done, I can debug the code on the hardware. May be I could fix the issues, like non blinking leds, by inspecting the code and watch for configuration issues of the ports (the addressing of the ports seems to be OK). But being able to debug would be a big plus in future development.
Off course, once the gateway is working with blinking leds, I want to replace the development board with something cheaper from E-Bay et al. I want to give this one a try:
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/Nordic-nRF52840-module-Bluetooth-low-energy-long-range-500-meters-bluetooth-5-0-PCB-IPX-Antenna/32953759053.html
The plus of this board is that you can use an external 2.4 Ghz antenna. And it has the newest 52840. If you are creating a gateway, I suppose your budget will not depend on $3 price difference.Once all that is done, I want to turn my Nordic Thingy (https://www.nordicsemi.com/eng/Products/Nordic-Thingy-52) into a MySensors device. Seems like doable. But someone has to do it.
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Guys, let's move on from this tempest in a teapot. The way I see it: at this point in history what we individually want or don't want won't make any difference to the ultimate outcome in the big picture, because there are now much larger forces at work. Our best bet is to help each other identify the best trend to ride. If that's mysensors, then great, but if not, let's try to figure out just exactly what else might reasonably win so that we can avoid dead-ends and hopefully ride the trends with the wind at our backs. :)
To my mind, the following have traction (in no particular order)
- LoRa (because it's simple and it just plain works)
- Bluetooth 5 Long Range (because smart phones, eventually, will make it so) with an integrated ARM MCU. That said, bluetooth per se has always seemed cumbersome to me, and I never really liked it. I'd probably be happier using a barebones version of it.
- MQTT
Maybe Thread will happen or maybe it won't. I'm not sure what will catalyze it, so I'd have to see meaningful uptake before I bet on Thread.
@neverdie Bluetooth and zigbee have different scopes and different business models. Zigbee is targeting automation networks such as devices that are permanently available and collecting in a server, while Bluetooth is only user centric in its pairing mechanism (it's funning those bluetooth devices that collect a certain amount of data locally for download with the user's phone, they are not scalable for big systems). Zigbee is evolving towards more structured networks capabilities and I predict that the Thread is sooner or later going to replace Zigbee without users loosing functional products as the alliance is already preparing a common zigbee and Thread top layer (dot dot) that would provide a smooth transition. Thread will provide a standardised routing between the sensors local network and the internet, and that is very competitive compared to any Bluetooth or zigbee solution where every one has to reinvent the wheel for a different way of mapping the local network to global, vendor specific or custom gateways would finally tend to disappear. Even if you do not want your sensor to be shared with the world, the smooth transition from low power wireless network to ethernet (and the raspr) is something I would apreciate. Now add to that the MQTT-SN that is designed for low power wireless networks, and you get an out of the box MQTT layer for your low power wireless sensor. I do not know, but if I would bet, I'd bet on that to gain interest in the future.
And by the way, I do not think that these fancy standards compete with MySesnors, because the SW that is simple and you know is 100 times more practicle to work with, port and adapt to corner cases than a huge stack such as BT or zigbee. -
@neverdie Bluetooth and zigbee have different scopes and different business models. Zigbee is targeting automation networks such as devices that are permanently available and collecting in a server, while Bluetooth is only user centric in its pairing mechanism (it's funning those bluetooth devices that collect a certain amount of data locally for download with the user's phone, they are not scalable for big systems). Zigbee is evolving towards more structured networks capabilities and I predict that the Thread is sooner or later going to replace Zigbee without users loosing functional products as the alliance is already preparing a common zigbee and Thread top layer (dot dot) that would provide a smooth transition. Thread will provide a standardised routing between the sensors local network and the internet, and that is very competitive compared to any Bluetooth or zigbee solution where every one has to reinvent the wheel for a different way of mapping the local network to global, vendor specific or custom gateways would finally tend to disappear. Even if you do not want your sensor to be shared with the world, the smooth transition from low power wireless network to ethernet (and the raspr) is something I would apreciate. Now add to that the MQTT-SN that is designed for low power wireless networks, and you get an out of the box MQTT layer for your low power wireless sensor. I do not know, but if I would bet, I'd bet on that to gain interest in the future.
And by the way, I do not think that these fancy standards compete with MySesnors, because the SW that is simple and you know is 100 times more practicle to work with, port and adapt to corner cases than a huge stack such as BT or zigbee. -
As of today, uLisp now works on the nRF52840. I posted a repository and build instructions on github: https://github.com/rabbithat/uLisp_nRF52840 I have moved from uPython to uLisp to facilitate over-the-air code upates.
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An interesting benchmark I just did on the nRF52840: I'm able to transmit (and receive) the entire Declaration of Indepdence (roughly 8KB of text) in under 35 milliseconds. So, with that as a reference, I expect OTA code updates can be fairly low power. :)
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For those who haven't yet tried it, platformio has an "arduino" mode where it can program an nRF52840 very much along the lines that you would an arduino. Since it supports the nRF52840, I'd say it's a natural upgrade from the Sandeep Mistry library, which you don't really need to use anymore if you don't want to (though maybe it's still relevant for mySensor's compatability). At least to me, platformio seems much easier to use and much less of a learning curve than Segger Embedded Systems, Eclipse, or MBed. For anyone used to Arduino, it will seem very familiar.
@neverdie On platformio, what do you use for programming? A black magic probe?
And about the 255 payload, have you looked for a wrong sized variable or type? If you want me to give it a go on visual studio+resharper just send me a sample. I still don't have a programmer and still haven't received my nrfs so I would only look for programming errors.
