Everything nRF52840
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Sadly, at least as of June 2018, none of the smartphones supported the long range capabilities of Bluetooth 5, only just the 2mbps Bluetooth 5 capability. :(
Bluetooth 5 features in smartphones
Bluetooth 5 includes capabilities for faster speed and longer range. It’s fairer to say, however, that developers must choose between speed or range.
Read more: The Bluetooth 5 trade-off
In smartphones, however, you don’t even have that choice. To date none of the smartphones support the Coded PHY that extends the range of Bluetooth 5. Instead you can have the 2mbps speed. For most applications this is likely to be fine. Most consumers are looking for ways to connect to devices that are within a few feet of them. The longer-range features are more useful for lower bandwidth applications such as sensor networks.
https://blog.nordicsemi.com/getconnected/bluetooth-5-in-smartphonesI don't know if that's an android limitation which might improve, or whether the radio chips in the phones are missing the required hardware to do coded 125kbps Bluetooth 5 long range. I can understand that there's a chicken and egg dilemma holding things back, and that right now there's probably not any reason for phone manufacturers to give long range priority in their phones, since at present there's very few, if any, devices for the phones to connect with using Bluetooth 5 long range.
Nonetheless, this post has links to demo code for long-range bluetooth on the Nordic: https://devzone.nordicsemi.com/f/nordic-q-a/38267/long-range/148485#148485 :)
@neverdie I read an article regarding BLE 5.0, ANdroid and the Samsung Galaxy S8 HW (the used SoC from Qualcom/Snapdragon or from Samsung varying on the model/region).
The article is in German but it says: BLE 5.0 was introduced with Android 8.0 but the S8 HW does only support the 2x data rate (2MBps) but not the 4x range. So it seem that it is a HW limitation similar to the nRF52832 in comparison to the nRF52840. Only the 840 support both, the 832 only the higher data rate. Strange, that this is so bound to the HW and thus so limiting and unflexible. -
It's worth noting that Texas Instruments has a $29 launchpad which demonstrates its flavor of Bluetooth Long Range: http://www.ti.com/tool/launchxl-cc2640r2
It uses a Cortex M3 rather than an M4.
I think it might be worth looking into to see whether it's any easier to use than SES.Cypress Semiconductor has its version, with kits starting at $49.
http://www.cypress.com/products/ble-bluetoothLikewise, silicon labs has its version, but the starter kit is $99: https://www.silabs.com/support/getting-started/bluetooth/bluetooth-low-energy
https://www.silabs.com/products/wireless/learning-center/bluetooth/bluetooth-5?gclid=EAIaIQobChMIodewu8PR3QIVXrXACh2IZwE5EAAYASAAEgI3OfD_BwEAre there other manufacturers worth noting?
I wish at least one of them had an official video course. That would speed up the learning process. I think Nordic has made the mistake of not making it easier to learn how to develop for their product. It wouldn't be hard for them to do a high quality video tutorial, and yet it appears they've done just the bare minimum. I have some hope that TI may be better in this regard, but I haven't yet looked more closely to say for sure.
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@NeverDie I think you need to hold it, but it looks there is "coded" holes/slots for helping and correct positioning.
@monte
@monte said in Everything nRF52840:haven't you noticed that mysensors' community which is represented mostly by this forum has become more than just an arduino library?
Hmm, I haven't.. so what's more? Has MySensors been forked to another platform?
@monte said in Everything nRF52840:
People share on this forum many projects that has only mediate connection to mysensors, if any. And many of users of the library in it's current form have outgrowing some of it's limitations, so naturally they will try to find a solution to overcome them and then share with others on this forum.
I'm not the last on bleeding edge, but I didn't notice many mediate connections..Which limitations have been hacked? maybe on the forum, not same on git I think. Thx to PR contributors. But apart from mysensors team, especially one very active contributor that we can thx ;) it's rather rare.
@monte said in Everything nRF52840:
I don't see nothing wrong for mysensors platform to evolve and adopt modern standards and/or protocols. And even if 15.4 is not suitable or just a replacement of mysensors protocol
Not in scope and not supported by mysensors team to switch to a standard, as mysensors is still about its own stack. It's like if you wanted to mix zigbee&mysensors logics (doesn't make sense). So 15.4 is a replacement. Maybe read about it. I'm telling this because I played and playing with 15.4+another mcu, and comparing stacks.. whether switching stack or not. If not, what could be improved, logics to add to mysensors etc.
@monte said in Everything nRF52840:
I think there are people here that will find it useful to read about it. Correct me if I'm wrong but there is no rule against discussing other protocols than mysensors on this forum.
you're right. no rule on this, free to talk. But I preferred to be precise for newcomers who may get confused when reading about nrf52840 in mysensors, that there is no support from team for others stacks, and non-arduino.
Lot of "noobs" don't know what means a rf stack exactly, what logics inside etc, they simply want to use MySensors because it's easy to use, especially when non former dev. That's what would expect someone discovering nrf52840 is supported in MySensors. So this gets completely confusing, external toolchains and using others rf stacks etc.. might end in hundreds of posts with just a few mysensors relevant infos (good luck for newcomers)wasting my time, I won't disturbe your experiments anymore ;)
Good luck and feel free to improve MySensors of course!@scalz said in Everything nRF52840:
Hmm, I haven't.. so what's more? Has MySensors been forked to another platform?
I mean people discuss all things here on forum that are in common interest including 3d printers, CNC's and work place arrangement. No wonder they will discuss other wireless protocols and platforms as well.
@scalz said in Everything nRF52840:
Lot of "noobs" don't know what means a rf stack exactly, what logics inside etc, they simply want to use MySensors because it's easy to use, especially when non former dev. That's what would expect someone discovering nrf52840 is supported in MySensors. So this gets completely confusing, external toolchains and using others rf stacks etc.. might end in hundreds of posts with just a few mysensors relevant infos (good luck for newcomers)
Those newcomers will just pass by these threads and find the answer on their topic. And then when they will learn (as many of us did thanks to this forum) they will come back to threads like this and get useful information for their further education. And those noobs, you mentioned who just wants to make "smart socket" or humidity sensor probably won't even come to the forum section as they have plenty information in tutorials on the main page. Why do you consider newcomers so dumb?
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Guys, let's move on from this tempest in a teapot. The way I see it: at this point in history what we individually want or don't want won't make any difference to the ultimate outcome in the big picture, because there are now much larger forces at work. Our best bet is to help each other identify the best trend to ride. If that's mysensors, then great, but if not, let's try to figure out just exactly what else might reasonably win so that we can avoid dead-ends and hopefully ride the trends with the wind at our backs. :)
To my mind, the following have traction (in no particular order)
- LoRa (because it's simple and it just plain works)
- Bluetooth 5 Long Range (because smart phones, eventually, will make it so) with an integrated ARM MCU. That said, bluetooth per se has always seemed cumbersome to me, and I never really liked it. I'd probably be happier using a barebones version of it.
- MQTT
Maybe Thread will happen or maybe it won't. I'm not sure what will catalyze it, so I'd have to see meaningful uptake before I bet on Thread.
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Guys, let's move on from this tempest in a teapot. The way I see it: at this point in history what we individually want or don't want won't make any difference to the ultimate outcome in the big picture, because there are now much larger forces at work. Our best bet is to help each other identify the best trend to ride. If that's mysensors, then great, but if not, let's try to figure out just exactly what else might reasonably win so that we can avoid dead-ends and hopefully ride the trends with the wind at our backs. :)
To my mind, the following have traction (in no particular order)
- LoRa (because it's simple and it just plain works)
- Bluetooth 5 Long Range (because smart phones, eventually, will make it so) with an integrated ARM MCU. That said, bluetooth per se has always seemed cumbersome to me, and I never really liked it. I'd probably be happier using a barebones version of it.
- MQTT
Maybe Thread will happen or maybe it won't. I'm not sure what will catalyze it, so I'd have to see meaningful uptake before I bet on Thread.
@neverdie I have no problem with this discussion (actually I like it :-). We're just lookig for an alternative to the "aged" and "limited" Atmega 328p platform. And at the end, I can/should also benefit for the MySesnors project/community.
At least, I'll do it anyway but having some other experts opinins is always helpful.I have taken a look at the TI CC1352P which supports multiprotocols UHF (868) and BLE 5 (ZigBee, Threads etc.). It has similar features as the nRF52.
Has less Flash/RAM but still sufficient.So still to investigate BLE 5/ZigBee long range or LoRa + MQTT and Nordic nRF52 or TI CCxxx :-)
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@neverdie I have no problem with this discussion (actually I like it :-). We're just lookig for an alternative to the "aged" and "limited" Atmega 328p platform. And at the end, I can/should also benefit for the MySesnors project/community.
At least, I'll do it anyway but having some other experts opinins is always helpful.I have taken a look at the TI CC1352P which supports multiprotocols UHF (868) and BLE 5 (ZigBee, Threads etc.). It has similar features as the nRF52.
Has less Flash/RAM but still sufficient.So still to investigate BLE 5/ZigBee long range or LoRa + MQTT and Nordic nRF52 or TI CCxxx :-)
@heinzv said in Everything nRF52840:
I have taken a look at the TI CC1352P which supports multiprotocols UHF (868) and BLE 5 (ZigBee, Threads etc.). It has similar features as the nRF52.
Wow, almost everything but the kitchen sink!
The CC1352P device is a multiprotocol Sub-1 and 2.4-GHz wireless MCU targeting Wireless M-Bus, IEEE 802.15.4g, IPv6-enabled smart objects (6LoWPAN), Thread, Zigbee®, KNX RF, Wi-SUN®, Bluetooth® 5 low energy, and proprietary systems. The device contains a +20-dBm integrated high-power amplifier with best-in-class efficiency for long-range applications.
http://www.ti.com/product/CC1352P/descriptionImpressive. What will TI make next? A software defined radio? :laughing:
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@NeverDie that's what I'm going to use for my ha. I have TI launchpad and sensortag for testing, already played a bit with previous cc1350 and their framework. I have designed a few different cc1352x rf modules (shielded), childboard for sensors, pcb or ceramic antennas footprints for nodes etc..I'm just waiting to receive pcbs, vna and I'll tune. when enclosed too. for compliance. Lot of fun coming
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Interesting! I watched this video and learned that it lets you do both Bluetooth and sub-gigahertz simultaneously. :)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xplG21wJsPkI like it. :)
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@NeverDie that's what I'm going to use for my ha. I have TI launchpad and sensortag for testing, already played a bit with previous cc1350 and their framework. I have designed a few different cc1352x rf modules (shielded), childboard for sensors, pcb or ceramic antennas footprints for nodes etc..I'm just waiting to receive pcbs, vna and I'll tune. when enclosed too. for compliance. Lot of fun coming
@scalz So that was a good hint :-) It would be nice if you would share your PCB's and and where you ordered it and I hope also your code! I have not yet seen many boards (good layout and price) with the CC1352P/R but maybe you can help us here?
Of course I mean beside the TI Lunchpad for develoment.@NeverDie what do you think? Finally we might come closer :-)
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@scalz So that was a good hint :-) It would be nice if you would share your PCB's and and where you ordered it and I hope also your code! I have not yet seen many boards (good layout and price) with the CC1352P/R but maybe you can help us here?
Of course I mean beside the TI Lunchpad for develoment.@NeverDie what do you think? Finally we might come closer :-)
@heinzv said in Everything nRF52840:
what do you think?
I've pretty much said what's on my mind. I just want to make sure I'm taking the easiest/fastest path possible for getting projects done. IMHO, Nordic would benefit from a more friendly API (more like Arduino or MBED). Nordic's code is largely undocumented in-line. Instead, virtually all the documentation is in Wiki's or the datasheet. It's just not geared toward quick learning, although once you learn something it does seem easy in retrospect.
Therefore, I think TI is worth a closer look. If TI is easier than SES/Nordic, or at least has better learning materials, then I'd probably switch to TI, even though I would sorely miss Nordic's Programmable Peripheral Interface (PPI). As far as I know, PPI is not a part of ARM, and only Nordic has a it (?).
Also, having a wireless bootloader that works and is easy to use would be a real bonus. I'd much prefer to wirelessly upload sketches. Does TI have that? Anyone know?
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@heinzv said in Everything nRF52840:
what do you think?
I've pretty much said what's on my mind. I just want to make sure I'm taking the easiest/fastest path possible for getting projects done. IMHO, Nordic would benefit from a more friendly API (more like Arduino or MBED). Nordic's code is largely undocumented in-line. Instead, virtually all the documentation is in Wiki's or the datasheet. It's just not geared toward quick learning, although once you learn something it does seem easy in retrospect.
Therefore, I think TI is worth a closer look. If TI is easier than SES/Nordic, or at least has better learning materials, then I'd probably switch to TI, even though I would sorely miss Nordic's Programmable Peripheral Interface (PPI). As far as I know, PPI is not a part of ARM, and only Nordic has a it (?).
Also, having a wireless bootloader that works and is easy to use would be a real bonus. I'd much prefer to wirelessly upload sketches. Does TI have that? Anyone know?
@neverdie said in Everything nRF52840:
Also, having a wireless bootloader that works and is easy to use would be a real bonus. I'd much prefer to wirelessly upload sketches. Does TI have that?
Answering my own question, it would appear the answer is yes:
Supports Over-the-Air Upgrade (OTA)
http://www.ti.com/product/CC1352P/descriptionand it appears to be true for the CC2642R2 launchpad also:
http://dev.ti.com/tirex/content/simplelink_cc2640r2_sdk_1_30_00_25/docs/blestack/ble_sw_dev_guide/html/oad/oad.html:) :)
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@neverdie said in Everything nRF52840:
Also, having a wireless bootloader that works and is easy to use would be a real bonus. I'd much prefer to wirelessly upload sketches. Does TI have that?
Answering my own question, it would appear the answer is yes:
Supports Over-the-Air Upgrade (OTA)
http://www.ti.com/product/CC1352P/descriptionand it appears to be true for the CC2642R2 launchpad also:
http://dev.ti.com/tirex/content/simplelink_cc2640r2_sdk_1_30_00_25/docs/blestack/ble_sw_dev_guide/html/oad/oad.html:) :)
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@heinzv That's great. Maybe we can learn together. :)
I like Mouser, although here it may in this instance be less expensive to order from TI directly.
The main downside at the moment is that both the CC1352P and the CC2640 are so new that there are not as yet any inexpensive modules to use on projects, and I doubt I would be good at DIY reflowing these chips onto PCBs. So, I'm not sure what to do about that. Anyone have any ideas?
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@heinzv said in Everything nRF52840:
@neverdie I have ordered the Launchpad LAUNCHXL-CC1352P1 from Mouser.at and registered at TI and downloaded all SDK's and the IDE(s).
Now I need plenty of time to test my nRF52832, nRF52840 (breakout/USB dongles) as well as the TI CC1352P ...To kick start your development, we offer two LaunchPads with optimized external RF components, one for Sub-1GHz PA and another for 2.4GHz PA wireless operations:
LAUNCHXL-CC1352P1:
Sub-1 GHz operation at 868 MHz / 915 MHz up to 20 dBm
2.4 GHz operation up to 5 dBm
Get started with the out of box experience > (dev.ti.com/launchxl-cc1352p1)
LAUNCHXL-CC1352P-2:
Sub-1 GHz operation at 868 MHz / 915 MHz up to +14 dBm
2.4 GHz operation up to +18 dBm*
Argh. Why, oh why, didn't TI make a launchpad with a PA on both the sub-1ghz and the 2.4ghz?
I wonder which radio gets used for the OTA firmware upload?
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@heinzv said in Everything nRF52840:
@neverdie I have ordered the Launchpad LAUNCHXL-CC1352P1 from Mouser.at and registered at TI and downloaded all SDK's and the IDE(s).
Now I need plenty of time to test my nRF52832, nRF52840 (breakout/USB dongles) as well as the TI CC1352P ...To kick start your development, we offer two LaunchPads with optimized external RF components, one for Sub-1GHz PA and another for 2.4GHz PA wireless operations:
LAUNCHXL-CC1352P1:
Sub-1 GHz operation at 868 MHz / 915 MHz up to 20 dBm
2.4 GHz operation up to 5 dBm
Get started with the out of box experience > (dev.ti.com/launchxl-cc1352p1)
LAUNCHXL-CC1352P-2:
Sub-1 GHz operation at 868 MHz / 915 MHz up to +14 dBm
2.4 GHz operation up to +18 dBm*
Argh. Why, oh why, didn't TI make a launchpad with a PA on both the sub-1ghz and the 2.4ghz?
I wonder which radio gets used for the OTA firmware upload?
@neverdie I have seen that only the P1 version was "unavailable" directly @TI. And yes they have different signal strength on 1GHz and >2,4GHz. I found that also strange.
I wanted to order @TI directly but it looks like you have to be a company or a school and they enforce you to provide a valid URL (you could fake that but I'm not sure if they would ship then).
However buying it at Mouser in Austria is faster and you don't pay shipping cost (above 50€) and don't have to take cate about tax as Mouser has an Austrian order address . The Launchpad cost about 50€.Regarding the non dev modules: That is what I mentioned to @scalz that I have not yet seen cheap modules, but he said that he made some PCB's for the MCU as well as sensor add-ons and they are on the way, so I hope he will share the PCB files with us or we can order them via his page.
I have a SMD hot air soldering station and solder paste. So I have no fear to solder the MCU :-) But of course having ready soldered bare modules which work out of the box and less or around than 10€/US$ would be preferred. -
@heinzv said in Everything nRF52840:
@neverdie I have ordered the Launchpad LAUNCHXL-CC1352P1 from Mouser.at and registered at TI and downloaded all SDK's and the IDE(s).
Now I need plenty of time to test my nRF52832, nRF52840 (breakout/USB dongles) as well as the TI CC1352P ...To kick start your development, we offer two LaunchPads with optimized external RF components, one for Sub-1GHz PA and another for 2.4GHz PA wireless operations:
LAUNCHXL-CC1352P1:
Sub-1 GHz operation at 868 MHz / 915 MHz up to 20 dBm
2.4 GHz operation up to 5 dBm
Get started with the out of box experience > (dev.ti.com/launchxl-cc1352p1)
LAUNCHXL-CC1352P-2:
Sub-1 GHz operation at 868 MHz / 915 MHz up to +14 dBm
2.4 GHz operation up to +18 dBm*
Argh. Why, oh why, didn't TI make a launchpad with a PA on both the sub-1ghz and the 2.4ghz?
I wonder which radio gets used for the OTA firmware upload?
@neverdie said in Everything nRF52840:
Argh. Why, oh why, didn't TI make a launchpad with a PA on both the sub-1ghz and the 2.4ghz?
because it's a very new mcu, and they have some work in progress regarding PA paths. (from what I read). So I think they wanted to quickly provide a few usable&different launchpad designs for customers.
Like I said above (but it's in nrf52840 thread arghh), I designed my own shielded modules that I'll tune regarding an ideal gnd plane. I'll test a few antennas (still have a few favorites, but there are some nice chip antennas I would like to test too). And I'll also tune it regarding a sensor daughter board I made, and again check once it's enclosed too. Once that's done I'll provide some comparison, infos, with tuning results (smith charts, vswr etc), tips and help if I can for assembly or to get my modules (PM, or tindie etc, I have a reflow oven to help me, and at my job we're talking about pick&place in shortterm future, not for iot, but handy for extra projects) but 1st step 1st :)
Still for the moment, as some others new mcus (with erratas), it's not arduino.. but TI mcus are close as it's possible to use, with some limitations, Energia/Arduino project (and sketches are import-able to TI ide).
Our plan (another team member might be interested, he played with cc135x too) is to use MySensors lib (or a part). The main reason : MySensors API is compatible with lot of controllers. -
@neverdie said in Everything nRF52840:
Argh. Why, oh why, didn't TI make a launchpad with a PA on both the sub-1ghz and the 2.4ghz?
because it's a very new mcu, and they have some work in progress regarding PA paths. (from what I read). So I think they wanted to quickly provide a few usable&different launchpad designs for customers.
Like I said above (but it's in nrf52840 thread arghh), I designed my own shielded modules that I'll tune regarding an ideal gnd plane. I'll test a few antennas (still have a few favorites, but there are some nice chip antennas I would like to test too). And I'll also tune it regarding a sensor daughter board I made, and again check once it's enclosed too. Once that's done I'll provide some comparison, infos, with tuning results (smith charts, vswr etc), tips and help if I can for assembly or to get my modules (PM, or tindie etc, I have a reflow oven to help me, and at my job we're talking about pick&place in shortterm future, not for iot, but handy for extra projects) but 1st step 1st :)
Still for the moment, as some others new mcus (with erratas), it's not arduino.. but TI mcus are close as it's possible to use, with some limitations, Energia/Arduino project (and sketches are import-able to TI ide).
Our plan (another team member might be interested, he played with cc135x too) is to use MySensors lib (or a part). The main reason : MySensors API is compatible with lot of controllers.@scalz said in Everything nRF52840:
Our plan (another team member might be interested, he played with cc135x too) is to use MySensors lib (or a part). The main reason : MySensors API is compatible with lot of controllers.
Yes that's the big advantage of MySensors, having something you can use on many controllers. So even if the RF stack/network is completely different it's still nice to have a gateway that pretends to be a MySensors gateway to the controller.
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@heinzv (or anybody) Do you happen to know what the Tx power and Rx sensitivity is on the bluetooth that's in the Samsung Galaxy S8? I'm guessing that it's relatively weak, in which case I suppose launchpad P1 might make more sense than P2.
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It seems that Nordic just hasn't developed easy to use abstraction layer for Bluetooth 5. The question is: has TI? I guess maybe before ordering the launchpad, I should download TI's software and have a look.
Also, is it better to have a single awesome radio that does everything at 2.4Ghz or two humdrum radios, one with great range at sub 1ghz and the other with limited range at 2.4ghz? The two radio solution will always have a higher hardware cost and a bigger footprint, so getting cheap modules might (?) be difficult even down the road. I just don't know.
Thoughts?
