Everything nRF52840

[heinzv]

@NeverDie got it. I'll also try both and decide then. Maybe scalz can help us to come to a decison as he tried both and might share some sketches/code or give us some hints.

[NeverDie]

@neverdie said in Everything nRF52840:

Also, having a wireless bootloader that works and is easy to use would be a real bonus. I'd much prefer to wirelessly upload sketches. Does TI have that?

Answering my own question, it would appear the answer is yes:

Supports Over-the-Air Upgrade (OTA)
http://www.ti.com/product/CC1352P/description

and it appears to be true for the CC2642R2 launchpad also:
http://dev.ti.com/tirex/content/simplelink_cc2640r2_sdk_1_30_00_25/docs/blestack/ble_sw_dev_guide/html/oad/oad.html

:) :)

[heinzv]

@neverdie I have ordered the Launchpad LAUNCHXL-CC1352P1 from Mouser.at and registered at TI and downloaded all SDK's and the IDE(s).
Now I need plenty of time to test my nRF52832, nRF52840 (breakout/USB dongles) as well as the TI CC1352P ...

[NeverDie]

@heinzv That's great. Maybe we can learn together. :)

I like Mouser, although here it may in this instance be less expensive to order from TI directly.

The main downside at the moment is that both the CC1352P and the CC2640 are so new that there are not as yet any inexpensive modules to use on projects, and I doubt I would be good at DIY reflowing these chips onto PCBs. So, I'm not sure what to do about that. Anyone have any ideas?

[NeverDie]

@heinzv said in Everything nRF52840:

@neverdie I have ordered the Launchpad LAUNCHXL-CC1352P1 from Mouser.at and registered at TI and downloaded all SDK's and the IDE(s).
Now I need plenty of time to test my nRF52832, nRF52840 (breakout/USB dongles) as well as the TI CC1352P ...

To kick start your development, we offer two LaunchPads with optimized external RF components, one for Sub-1GHz PA and another for 2.4GHz PA wireless operations:

LAUNCHXL-CC1352P1:

Sub-1 GHz operation at 868 MHz / 915 MHz up to 20 dBm

2.4 GHz operation up to 5 dBm

Get started with the out of box experience > (dev.ti.com/launchxl-cc1352p1)

LAUNCHXL-CC1352P-2:

Sub-1 GHz operation at 868 MHz / 915 MHz up to +14 dBm

2.4 GHz operation up to +18 dBm*

Argh. Why, oh why, didn't TI make a launchpad with a PA on both the sub-1ghz and the 2.4ghz?

I wonder which radio gets used for the OTA firmware upload?

[heinzv]

@neverdie I have seen that only the P1 version was "unavailable" directly @TI. And yes they have different signal strength on 1GHz and >2,4GHz. I found that also strange.
I wanted to order @TI directly but it looks like you have to be a company or a school and they enforce you to provide a valid URL (you could fake that but I'm not sure if they would ship then).
However buying it at Mouser in Austria is faster and you don't pay shipping cost (above 50€) and don't have to take cate about tax as Mouser has an Austrian order address . The Launchpad cost about 50€.

Regarding the non dev modules: That is what I mentioned to @scalz that I have not yet seen cheap modules, but he said that he made some PCB's for the MCU as well as sensor add-ons and they are on the way, so I hope he will share the PCB files with us or we can order them via his page.
I have a SMD hot air soldering station and solder paste. So I have no fear to solder the MCU :-) But of course having ready soldered bare modules which work out of the box and less or around than 10€/US$ would be preferred.

[scalz]

@neverdie said in Everything nRF52840:

Argh. Why, oh why, didn't TI make a launchpad with a PA on both the sub-1ghz and the 2.4ghz?

because it's a very new mcu, and they have some work in progress regarding PA paths. (from what I read). So I think they wanted to quickly provide a few usable&different launchpad designs for customers.

Like I said above (but it's in nrf52840 thread arghh), I designed my own shielded modules that I'll tune regarding an ideal gnd plane. I'll test a few antennas (still have a few favorites, but there are some nice chip antennas I would like to test too). And I'll also tune it regarding a sensor daughter board I made, and again check once it's enclosed too. Once that's done I'll provide some comparison, infos, with tuning results (smith charts, vswr etc), tips and help if I can for assembly or to get my modules (PM, or tindie etc, I have a reflow oven to help me, and at my job we're talking about pick&place in shortterm future, not for iot, but handy for extra projects) but 1st step 1st :)
Still for the moment, as some others new mcus (with erratas), it's not arduino.. but TI mcus are close as it's possible to use, with some limitations, Energia/Arduino project (and sketches are import-able to TI ide).
Our plan (another team member might be interested, he played with cc135x too) is to use MySensors lib (or a part). The main reason : MySensors API is compatible with lot of controllers.

[Nca78]

@scalz said in Everything nRF52840:

Our plan (another team member might be interested, he played with cc135x too) is to use MySensors lib (or a part). The main reason : MySensors API is compatible with lot of controllers.

Yes that's the big advantage of MySensors, having something you can use on many controllers. So even if the RF stack/network is completely different it's still nice to have a gateway that pretends to be a MySensors gateway to the controller.

[NeverDie]

@heinzv (or anybody) Do you happen to know what the Tx power and Rx sensitivity is on the bluetooth that's in the Samsung Galaxy S8? I'm guessing that it's relatively weak, in which case I suppose launchpad P1 might make more sense than P2.

[NeverDie]

It seems that Nordic just hasn't developed easy to use abstraction layer for Bluetooth 5. The question is: has TI? I guess maybe before ordering the launchpad, I should download TI's software and have a look.

Also, is it better to have a single awesome radio that does everything at 2.4Ghz or two humdrum radios, one with great range at sub 1ghz and the other with limited range at 2.4ghz? The two radio solution will always have a higher hardware cost and a bigger footprint, so getting cheap modules might (?) be difficult even down the road. I just don't know.

Thoughts?

[heinzv]

@neverdie I have not found any hint on BLE Rx Tx sensitivity (Rx) or signal strength (Tx), but I assume that it's not that high as after a few meters the device connections are lost (SmatGear S3), Headphone etc. I would say less than 10m.

My TI CC1352P1 is ordered and I guess it will arrive by end of the week. Meanwhile the Nordic USB dongles are also on the way, so I'll start with the nRF52840 latest at the next weekend and I assume I will have the first experience with the Nordic MCU's.

Regarding the TI MCU: Although in the advertisment video it was explained why you would have two radios at the same time on the same chip, but I rather see it as a possibility to use one or the other best fitting the usage it is built for without attaching another modul. But I'll wait for the first set of real live tests under different conditions (for both nRF52 and TI CC1352). And also how convinient the IDE's and libraries can be used.

Looking at the TI homepage, the CC1352(p) is not even yet available but announved for Q3/2018 which should be now or soon. Thene I hope we can get first modules. I wonder where @scalz will get the MCU's (even the raw chip's)?

[NeverDie]

I've thought it through.

Presently the nRF52840 and all the TI Bluetooth 5 launchpads have a receive sensitivity of -103 at 2.4Ghz. None of them are using an LNA at this time.

I think my interest in these chips is mostly tied to doing very power efficient remote control wakeups, which I previously proved I could do using the PPI on an nRF52832. I used the PPI to wake up every 100ms and check for received packets without waking up the mcu, thereby saving power. I could do the same thing with the nRF52840, but with the advantage of its greater receive sensitivity. I'm not sure that TI has anything equivalent to PPI, but even if it did, it would have no advantages for this use case.

For everything else, I'm happy using LoRa modules, because their range/coverage are just fantastic, and at around $3 the Ra-01 LoRa modules are very inexpensive.

Meanwhile, I'll track developments at TI and see what becomes available. It looks like TI is doing good work.

[scalz]

@NeverDie they have sort of equivalent for processing IOs, sensors, i2c etc without waking up the mcu. it's called Sensor Controller (accessible by code or they also provide a small ide for it).
about LORA I've never been really interested in it, I prefer to have my own "micro" network than being a part of a larger network. I would also prefer narrowband.
Sure if you use LORA nodes, maybe narrowband is maybe not the best bet for you. in some cases, widespectrum LORA can have range issues, not heard, when narrowband is used (they made a video+appnote about coexistence)
My need is subghz for long range reliable delivery + BLE for shorter range stuff.., using one broadband antenna or two differents of any kind, to be able to use a module or a bare ic (sometimes a module doesn't fit well in design regarding placement of the module or the antenna orientation&keepout area, so with two modules it's "worse"), and I've been very disappointed to see Nordic changed its mcu footprint (needs premium pcb, and more soldering care). That's why TI picked my curiosity (it ticked all my checkboxes, all in one).
But you're right if you feel more confortable with nrf, it's nice mcus too. Both needs some work anyway (one mcu needs BLE/MySensors, the other needs to get its dualmode compatible with MySensors messages&serial api)

[NeverDie]

@scalz I found this: https://training.ti.com/simplelink-academy-introduction-sensor-controller , which says:

Also, the sensor controller has not any direct interface to the radio or system flash.

[scalz]

@NeverDie yes. SC is also accessible from app, it can be independant. If goal would be for sort of lowpower listenmode, there are code examples too, not the goal of SC, sure (no link with rf). I don't think I tried it, but will take a look once I've other stuff ok.
I guess, even if PPI doesn't wake up mcu, the task function with a timer still uses somes power.

Maybe you should keep on nrf if you feel more familiar with these. Truth is I have played too with it, but I stopped on my side, a while ago..and started to take a look at TI (so I could say I'm as familiar or maybe "more" with TI now,..). And perhaps, I already said it, but I'm not interested to pay 12$ for bt840f (limited accessible IOs), or less money but with 840 ceramic antenna. When for the same price I can assemble myself a dualband mcu and pick antennas I need. Like people says, pick what fits best your needs (and the application) :)

[heinzv]

@scalz regarding LoRA (RFM95), I think you might confuse LoRa with LoRaWAN. LoRa is a protocol and you can have your own "mico network" (so do I). It is the most efficient and easy to use 868MHz radio (in my opinion) and has long range and high energy efficiency and cost is low (a little bit more than RFM69).
The nRF52840 has a good amount of Flash/RAM (1MB/256kB) and good sleep current even keeping RTC and RAM up or even using radio Rx.

But the TI MCU's like the CC1352P is certainly a very interesting new candidate and it look very very promising with it's BLE 5.0, ZigBee AND 868MHz radio. And I like the SC coprocessor. No doubt that look very attractive. Thus I ordered the CC1352P1 Lunchpad. But that seem to be the only available option to get this MCU and this is for learning purposes only.
When I look at the TI product page it says Status: PREVIEW, no stock: http://www.ti.com/product/CC1352P/samplebuy
I have also seen anounced prices with 10 US$ for the chip itself.
Not sure when it will be really available, get a reasonable price and modules offered (such as for any other MCU's like nRF52).
Same story for the CC2652R, also in PREVIEW.
If you have sources or even PCB's (designed by you) for this MCU's, I would be eager to order and test it.

[scalz]

@heinzv
yes you're right about lora, and that they're using some juice too ;) (they can even be compatible with a rfm69 when you take a look at the datasheet. TI's too though).
I know about nrf52840 power modes, I just replied about PPI feature (depending what you implement, it can't be completely free).
About Ti mcus, they are new and available at their store only. about sharing my work.. when I'll get time. for the moment I'm very busy (with my job too). In the meantime, you still can play with their devboard and try their courses, or energia.

[heinzv]

@scalz and @NeverDie today I got my nRF52840 dongles (6 pieces) as well as the TI CC1352P1 launchpad. Now the fun will begin (latest at the weekend)
See the picture below (the dongle in blue and the launchpad in red).
If you have already some more code to share for testing (send/receive, I2C sensor read etc.) please post it (some code was postetd by NeverDie) other wise I'm looking at the Nordic pages, they provide a lot of examples (I will probably use/try Segger).
For the TI part, I only have one launchpad, so I have to verify, if I can use BLE 5.0 to communicate with my mobile or between TI CC1352 and nRF52 ...
Not sure if the TI can also communicate with the CC1101 at 868MHz (using the Sub 1GHz capabilities) using the same modem settings. So a lot to find out.

[NeverDie]

@heinzv Please do keep us posted with your impressions as you develop them.

I found out that Nordic does have OTA firmware updates, though it looks rather laborioius to set up: https://devzone.nordicsemi.com/b/blog/posts/getting-started-with-nordics-secure-dfu-bootloader

Maybe it's easier with TI (?).

[heinzv]

@NeverDie okay, a very first testing yesterday late-night when setting up the Segger / nRF52(840) tool chain and a very quick dongle testing
I used the nRFconnect and uploaded all 5 demo/test applications which worked. No big achievement but just a very basic testing (maybe not even worth to mention)
Here is the result of the BLE app test: I did the BLE scan with the dongle and it found some devices around such as the BLE WiT power plug with the energy meter. Thene I did the oposite and installed the nRF connect on the Android Galaxy S8 phone and scanned for the nRF dongle.
Attached the two results (one from the dongle and one from the mobile phone)
As you see the Galaxy S8 finds all BLE WiT smart plugs in the flat (also the ones which are in other rooms) while the nRF dongle sees only the one which is close in the same room.
I would assume, that the Galaxy S8 has a much better BLE antenna than the dongle (which has almost no antenna), but what I interpret the RSSI, the dongle reports a better signal strength of the WiT powermeter in the room?!

Today I received also the breakout PCB's for the nRF52832, thus I'll probably try to do a sender/receiver test with them using one as mySensors Gateway and one as mySensors Node (both in nRF24 mode). Not sure if the compile/build will work, because I have to also provide the proper pin-map (as the E73 module is not mapped in the Arduino IDE).