Anyone here tried either LoRa Meshtastic or LoRaWan for grid-down emergency communications?
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I find emergency networks interesting, but have not tried any of them. Some other similar projects:
https://github.com/Call-for-Code/ClusterDuck-Protocol
https://github.com/markqvist/reticulum
https://disaster.radio/ / https://github.com/sudomesh/disaster-radio -
And is a mesh network isn't exciting enough, there's always the satellite route
https://amsat-dl.org/en/qo-100-high-speed-multi-media-beacon/ (2-way comms if you have a ham license)
https://othernet.is/products/dreamcatcher-circuit-board / https://www.engineeringforchange.org/solutions/product/outernet-lantern/ (note the name change from outernet to othernet )
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A starlink (or other satellite internet) would be expensive to keep active purely as a hot backup, but what might be ideal is if one could just buy the hardware and not activate it unless/until an emergency were to arrive, I wonder if that approach is even possible? It would be one way to keep costs low. Better yet would maybe be some kind of pay-per-use plan, like with cell phones, where you pay per gigabyte used, but pay nothing if not using it.
Short of that, Winlink email would at least get you basic functional email using just the ham infrastructure, but connecting with internet email over ham radio when possible:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0T2c7d-lP3wSo, I'm starting to think ham is the way to go, at least for now, since it has a large user base to communicate with (or through) in an emergency.
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A starlink (or other satellite internet) would be expensive to keep active purely as a hot backup, but what might be ideal is if one could just buy the hardware and not activate it unless/until an emergency were to arrive, I wonder if that approach is even possible? It would be one way to keep costs low. Better yet would maybe be some kind of pay-per-use plan, like with cell phones, where you pay per gigabyte used, but pay nothing if not using it.
Short of that, Winlink email would at least get you basic functional email using just the ham infrastructure, but connecting with internet email over ham radio when possible:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0T2c7d-lP3wSo, I'm starting to think ham is the way to go, at least for now, since it has a large user base to communicate with (or through) in an emergency.
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@NeverDie yes, starlink is the obvious, reliable, high capacity (and due to it bein available off the shelf, slightly boring) solution. Their RV plan can be paused and you don't pay any fees when it is paused.
@mfalkvidd said in Anyone here tried either LoRa Meshtastic or LoRaWan for grid-down emergency communications?:
@NeverDie yes, starlink is the obvious, reliable, high capacity (and due to it bein available off the shelf, slightly boring) solution. Their RV plan can be paused and you don't pay any fees when it is paused.
That sounds like a winner. I get the impression that high quality ham hardware (the kind that gives long range) probably runs around $500 or more, so the hardware cost is actually comparable, but at least with Starlink you'd be getting the entire internet and not just simple email or just simple messaging.
Are there any other satellite internet services worth considering?
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After looking into it, I'm coming to the conclusion that advanced emergency radio comms are hard to cost justify. For instance, if I were to buy a starlink for purely emergency purposes and put it on a shelf indefinitely for years, who knows whether it would even work during an emergency, as the firmware may(?) be too far out of date to function when the chips are down. Sure, it would be a nice to have, but better to get a simple emergency radio receiver that both FEMA and the Red Cross recommend everyone have. i.e. diminishing returns seem to kick in rather quickly after that. If it's a localized emergency, then help will be on the way, and if it isn't, I figure I can count on internet for a day or two from the cell phone carriers until they run out of power to send/receive emails with distant family. Maybe I'm missing the point (?), but in looking at what can be listened to over HF radio, it seems like it's almost purely junk. I can't understand why HAMs waste so much time listening to it.
Comments, anyone?
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In terms of low cost gear, the Tecsun PL330 would seem to cover most of the bases: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0921HN6QM/ref=ox_sc_saved_image_4?smid=AMH4W1K8OCGMX&psc=1
or possibly: https://www.amazon.com/Skywave-Shortwave-Weather-Airband-Portable/dp/B00QMTI6YK/ref=sr_1_15?crid=MU1ILCRMY0F3&keywords=aa+shortwave+radio&qid=1666551448&qu=eyJxc2MiOiIwLjAwIiwicXNhIjoiMC4wMCIsInFzcCI6IjAuMDAifQ%3D%3D&sprefix=aa+shortwave+radio%2Caps%2C131&sr=8-15&ufe=app_do%3Aamzn1.fos.006c50ae-5d4c-4777-9bc0-4513d670b6bcWhat it's lacking is a PC input for decoding CW (morse code) and other digital communications. I'm quite surprised that doesn't come built in, but I don't see any low-end devices which offer that. So, for that one could use a cheap SDR receiver (like RTL-SDR v3), but then you've got the energy drain of a PC or laptop for that to function, so I'm not sure. It would be almost half the cost though, and with the right software I suppose it could receive most things, including digital communications: https://www.amazon.com/RTL-SDR-Blog-RTL2832U-Software-Defined/dp/B011HVUEME/ref=sr_1_3?crid=1MSELINZYV738&keywords=RTl-SDR+V3&qid=1666549671&qu=eyJxc2MiOiI0LjA3IiwicXNhIjoiMi43MCIsInFzcCI6IjIuMjcifQ%3D%3D&s=electronics&sprefix=rtl-sdr+v3%2Celectronics%2C119&sr=1-3
I have the original RTL-SDR from way-back-when, but this would be an upgrade to that. Maybe with an old raspberry pi attached, the total energy drain would be acceptable if you have some minimal amount of solar power to draw upon. Not sure. Some people seem to prefer a cheap laptop for this purpose: https://www.amazon.com/Evolve-III-Maestro-Book-Celeron®/dp/B0B3GHTDN2/ref=sr_1_1?crid=2LSW1S3O23SCP&keywords=maestro+iii+evolve&qid=1666550241&qu=eyJxc2MiOiIwLjYwIiwicXNhIjoiMC4wMCIsInFzcCI6IjAuMDAifQ%3D%3D&s=electronics&sprefix=maestro+iii+evolve%2Celectronics%2C124&sr=1-1&ufe=app_do%3Aamzn1.fos.006c50ae-5d4c-4777-9bc0-4513d670b6bcA more traditional emergency radio would be: https://www.amazon.com/5000mAh-Digital-Emergency-Shortwave-Flashlight/dp/B08SWF34ZF/ref=sr_1_10?crid=3RK52R7MKFG6Y&keywords=voyager+digital+emergency+radio&qid=1666550690&qu=eyJxc2MiOiIxLjgxIiwicXNhIjoiMC4wMCIsInFzcCI6IjAuMDAifQ%3D%3D&s=electronics&sprefix=voyager+digital+emergency+radio%2Celectronics%2C138&sr=1-10 No access to HF or HAM, but if what I wrote in the post above is true, then that's junk anyway. However, you probably want something that can run from AA batteries rather than some kind of proprietary battery that might be dead when you need it. The midland comes with a LiPo battery, but also allows the use of 6 AA batteries as an alternative: https://www.amazon.com/Midland-Emergency-Multiple-Flashlight-Ultrasonic/dp/B015QIC1PW/ref=sr_1_1_sspa?crid=3TZ6I1JCU1YHM&keywords=midland+emergency+radio&qid=1666551871&qu=eyJxc2MiOiIzLjYyIiwicXNhIjoiMy4xMSIsInFzcCI6IjIuNTMifQ%3D%3D&sprefix=midland+emergency+radio%2Caps%2C120&sr=8-1-spons&ufe=app_do%3Aamzn1.fos.006c50ae-5d4c-4777-9bc0-4513d670b6bc&psc=1 It has no shortwave though. I haven't yet found a good emergency radio that does it all.
Any other concrete suggestions would be welcome.
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Reporting back: for an emergency receiver, the radio I settled on was the Crane Skywave SSB Shortwave:
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07HXKR479/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1because the youtube reviews were extremely positive, because it runs for 30 hours on a pair of AA batteries, because of its compact size and light weight (good for travel), and because it comes with a 20 foot long external antenna on a compact spool for pulling in long-distance HF and Shortwave. As it would be most beneficial in a mega-disaster, I'll be glad if I never have a reason to actually use it. ;-)
For those in US, an additional radio worth getting is the Reecom R-1630C emergency alert radio.
http://www.reecominc.com/r1630.htm
It has S.A.M.E. and will listen for a broad range of emergency alerts specific to the counties you program it for. It can run for 200 hours on one set of AA batteries, and, crucially, unlike the Midland radio I already have, it cuts off the announcement automatically when it reaches the End of Message (EOM). In contrast, my Midland continues playing the NOAA weather broadcast for 5 minutes before it times out, which is irritating whenever it sounds off due to a thunderstorm warning, flash flood warning, tornado watch, etc. There are enough of them for sale on ebay that you can get one for cheap there. I just today picked one up there for $20. Curiously enough, I've lately noticed that my Alexa now warns me about severe weather even before my NOAA radio does. Incredible! I had thought that by design NOAA was supposed to be fastest of all, but these days the evidence proves otherwise. In addition to weather, it covers the gamut of other warnings as well--everything from earthquakes to civil emergency to radiological threats to fire warnings to evacuation alerts: https://www.weather.gov/nwr/eventcodes Depending on where you live, some of those might be more relevant than others. For instance, I don't live anywhere near a nuclear power plant, but there are some in my state, and I suppose if the wind blew in the wrong direction after a meltdown, I'd probably get an alert--hopefully long before the fallout lands in my backyard! -
Although it may sound wild to those not closely following current events, here's the Reuter's headline: "Russia strikes Ukrainian infrastructure, says it may destroy Western satellites"
https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/russia-hits-ukraine-homes-evacuates-kherson-warns-escalation-2022-10-24/Considering Starlink's current use and with the sabotage of Nordstream 2 as context.... It would certainly be provocative, but civilian infrastructure apparently isn't deemed escalatory, so for that reason it's maybe not far-fetched. i.e. AFAIK, there is no "Article 5" equivalent in NATO that would be triggered, so Starlink is a sitting duck if it continues with its status-quo. It would probably take only one satellite getting fried for Starlink to shift its policy, and so I'm guessing that would happen first as a demonstration of resolve, with the threat of taking down the entire thing, or maybe one at a time, as leverage. Elon Musk can save face, because it will be his board of directors that overrule him. Ironically, giving it away for free makes it a no-brainer decision for any board of directors in a for-profit company to simply end it entirely.
Anyway, here's the TLDR: if satellite internet is anybody's "Plan B", then FWIW you may need a "Plan C"--such as discussed above in earlier posts--as a fallback. Even more so if you happen to live in Ukraine.
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Although it may sound wild to those not closely following current events, here's the Reuter's headline: "Russia strikes Ukrainian infrastructure, says it may destroy Western satellites"
https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/russia-hits-ukraine-homes-evacuates-kherson-warns-escalation-2022-10-24/Considering Starlink's current use and with the sabotage of Nordstream 2 as context.... It would certainly be provocative, but civilian infrastructure apparently isn't deemed escalatory, so for that reason it's maybe not far-fetched. i.e. AFAIK, there is no "Article 5" equivalent in NATO that would be triggered, so Starlink is a sitting duck if it continues with its status-quo. It would probably take only one satellite getting fried for Starlink to shift its policy, and so I'm guessing that would happen first as a demonstration of resolve, with the threat of taking down the entire thing, or maybe one at a time, as leverage. Elon Musk can save face, because it will be his board of directors that overrule him. Ironically, giving it away for free makes it a no-brainer decision for any board of directors in a for-profit company to simply end it entirely.
Anyway, here's the TLDR: if satellite internet is anybody's "Plan B", then FWIW you may need a "Plan C"--such as discussed above in earlier posts--as a fallback. Even more so if you happen to live in Ukraine.
@NeverDie they already attacked Viasat https://techcrunch.com/2022/05/10/russia-viasat-cyberattack/
But that was not a physical attack.
I wonder how many of the 2,500 satellites need to be affected before the network would be degraded. Physical attacks on a single geostationary satellite is definitely within the capabilities of nation states. But bringing down a constellation is a different game. -
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"Unfortunately the Commotion Project appears to be somewhat dormant. Their GitHub repository has not had any changes made since 2018, and the blog on their site has not been updated since 2015." https://jessehirsh.com/future-fibre-the-commotion-wireless-project/
Yes commotion is dormant, no more activity on gitHut but maybe another open source system has taken over ??? https://jessehirsh.com/future-fibre-telecomunicaciones-indigenas-comunitarias/
https://commotionwireless.net/docs/cck/networking/learn-wireless-basics/
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"Unfortunately the Commotion Project appears to be somewhat dormant. Their GitHub repository has not had any changes made since 2018, and the blog on their site has not been updated since 2015." https://jessehirsh.com/future-fibre-the-commotion-wireless-project/
Yes commotion is dormant, no more activity on gitHut but maybe another open source system has taken over ??? https://jessehirsh.com/future-fibre-telecomunicaciones-indigenas-comunitarias/
https://commotionwireless.net/docs/cck/networking/learn-wireless-basics/
@JeeLet The Things Network claims 89,623 gateways connected via LoRaWAN: https://www.thethingsnetwork.org/map
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@JeeLet The Things Network claims 89,623 gateways connected via LoRaWAN: https://www.thethingsnetwork.org/map
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This youtube is perhaps a little tangential, but I found it both informative and entertaining to watch. It makes an argument for why you'd want to have a stand-alone GPS (no, not the usual "connected" one in your phone) for use in emergency scenarios:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eUEZK_qmd_gThis youtuber also has a great sense of humor and demos some interesting products.
FWIW, the Red Cross recommends everyone should have paper maps as a backup, but these days who keeps up-to-date paper maps anymore? What this youtuber describes might make more sense as an alternative to paper maps, and he gives a compare/contrast as to why.
Although he didn't cover it, I'm fairly sure there's a way to download google maps to your phone so that you can be stand-alone that way, and this method wouldn't require any added expense (provided you have enough spare storage in your phone).
The same guy also did an interesting overview of emergency radio communications, which is very much on-topic for this thread:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nzDj0u1HhvE -
This youtube is perhaps a little tangential, but I found it both informative and entertaining to watch. It makes an argument for why you'd want to have a stand-alone GPS (no, not the usual "connected" one in your phone) for use in emergency scenarios:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eUEZK_qmd_gThis youtuber also has a great sense of humor and demos some interesting products.
FWIW, the Red Cross recommends everyone should have paper maps as a backup, but these days who keeps up-to-date paper maps anymore? What this youtuber describes might make more sense as an alternative to paper maps, and he gives a compare/contrast as to why.
Although he didn't cover it, I'm fairly sure there's a way to download google maps to your phone so that you can be stand-alone that way, and this method wouldn't require any added expense (provided you have enough spare storage in your phone).
The same guy also did an interesting overview of emergency radio communications, which is very much on-topic for this thread:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nzDj0u1HhvE@NeverDie yes google maps can be cached offline. I do that. Saves data traffic when I am online as well.
Not sure if the youtuber already mentioned it (I did not watch the videos) but the app called maps.me is great. I use it for offline maps on my phone and tablet. The maps are very detailed and it supports offline routing.
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@NeverDie yes google maps can be cached offline. I do that. Saves data traffic when I am online as well.
Not sure if the youtuber already mentioned it (I did not watch the videos) but the app called maps.me is great. I use it for offline maps on my phone and tablet. The maps are very detailed and it supports offline routing.
@mfalkvidd If things go sideways in the "you know where" region of eastern Europe, such that they affect Sweden, feel free to open a thread and ask for help. I'm sure everyone on this forum will do their best to get you any information or other resources you might need to adapt to events as they develop.
