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  1. Home
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  3. Over the air (OTA) bootloading update tutorial?

Over the air (OTA) bootloading update tutorial?

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  • mfalkviddM Offline
    mfalkviddM Offline
    mfalkvidd
    Mod
    wrote on last edited by
    #62

    Thanks for clarifying. Is this a correct representation?
    MySensors OTA2.png

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    • AnticimexA Offline
      AnticimexA Offline
      Anticimex
      Contest Winner
      wrote on last edited by
      #63

      From a signing perspective, yes. From current OTA perspective, probably (I'm not sure). From future OTA perspective, no (crc will be sent last and signed with a unknown beforehand component of the final crc)

      Do you feel secure today? No? Start requiring some signatures and feel better tomorrow ;)

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      • mfalkviddM Offline
        mfalkviddM Offline
        mfalkvidd
        Mod
        wrote on last edited by
        #64

        Alright, I guess I'll just have to wait until there is any documentation to discuss :-/

        As for the offer to set up an attack environment, I'm afraid I know way too little about radio communication to cause the interference required.

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        • AnticimexA Offline
          AnticimexA Offline
          Anticimex
          Contest Winner
          wrote on last edited by
          #65

          Well, I agree that crc can be spoofed. So I follow you on that. But I don't agree that sending a signed message to conclude the OTA session with a crc that needs to match previously sent firmware can be hijacked. This because transmissions are driven by the sender, also for signed messages, and signed messages cannot be delayed. We gave timers in place to detect that. So an attacker cannot delay the final signed message in order to prepare a different firmware that matches the crc. The sender will not wait with sending the final crc. And each firmware blob will contain a random part to scramble crc so a previous OTA session can not be used for reference.
          This would in my opinion secure OTA. But it is worth stressing that this is not how OTA works today, and hence my big disclaimer on my signing post on OTA. Tekka is working on this and might be able to provide you the documentation you seek. For signing, I refer to my post on that (and the doxygen link if you want to look at the bleeding edge development branch).

          Do you feel secure today? No? Start requiring some signatures and feel better tomorrow ;)

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          • tekkaT Offline
            tekkaT Offline
            tekka
            Admin
            wrote on last edited by
            #66

            I think there are some missing information here and I will provide some further detail to answer some of the open questions regarding the OTA process in 2.0.0.
            As for the CRC: the CRC used in the OTA update process is a function of the transmitted firmware AND a random element (added by the controller). In the final "validation" message, which is signed of course, the CRC and the last random element is transmitted and the node validates it to authorize the newly transmitted FW.
            Due to the random element present in the validation message, the final CRC cannot be predicted before it is actually send and not be forged due to the signature.

            mfalkviddM 1 Reply Last reply
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            • tekkaT tekka

              I think there are some missing information here and I will provide some further detail to answer some of the open questions regarding the OTA process in 2.0.0.
              As for the CRC: the CRC used in the OTA update process is a function of the transmitted firmware AND a random element (added by the controller). In the final "validation" message, which is signed of course, the CRC and the last random element is transmitted and the node validates it to authorize the newly transmitted FW.
              Due to the random element present in the validation message, the final CRC cannot be predicted before it is actually send and not be forged due to the signature.

              mfalkviddM Offline
              mfalkviddM Offline
              mfalkvidd
              Mod
              wrote on last edited by
              #67

              @tekka said:

              Due to the random element present in the validation message, the final CRC cannot be predicted before it is actually send and not be forged due to the signature.

              That statement is incorrect. The crc is available to the attacker the instant the last byte of the firmware message is sent.

              If the attacker blocks the original firmware messages and sends their own firmware instead, all that's required after the last byte of the original firmware message is sent is to send one more fake firmware message with 2 bytes.

              If the signing timer is short enough to prevent a 2 byte message, the attacker will indeed be prevented from sending a fake firmware with the same crc as the original firmware. But is the timer really that short?

              tekkaT 1 Reply Last reply
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              • mfalkviddM mfalkvidd

                @tekka said:

                Due to the random element present in the validation message, the final CRC cannot be predicted before it is actually send and not be forged due to the signature.

                That statement is incorrect. The crc is available to the attacker the instant the last byte of the firmware message is sent.

                If the attacker blocks the original firmware messages and sends their own firmware instead, all that's required after the last byte of the original firmware message is sent is to send one more fake firmware message with 2 bytes.

                If the signing timer is short enough to prevent a 2 byte message, the attacker will indeed be prevented from sending a fake firmware with the same crc as the original firmware. But is the timer really that short?

                tekkaT Offline
                tekkaT Offline
                tekka
                Admin
                wrote on last edited by tekka
                #68

                @mfalkvidd I'm not sure I understand your point. The last random element necessary to compute the CRC is transmitted together with the CRC and that message is signed, hence the CRC is not predictable until it is send.

                Please elaborate your scenario with the 2 byte message and how this results in a valid CRC.

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                • AnticimexA Offline
                  AnticimexA Offline
                  Anticimex
                  Contest Winner
                  wrote on last edited by
                  #69

                  I will provide a more elaborate explanation of the signing timer since my point is being missed. But I don't have the time right now so it will be later today. But in short, we have safeguards to ensure there is no way of delaying signing handshaking so if the signed crc is sent immediately after the FW, if anyone tried to delay that (and they would need to in order to inject a new FW) either the sender or receiver will detect this.

                  Do you feel secure today? No? Start requiring some signatures and feel better tomorrow ;)

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                  • AnticimexA Offline
                    AnticimexA Offline
                    Anticimex
                    Contest Winner
                    wrote on last edited by
                    #70

                    Alright. I now only talk about 2.0.0 OTA, just to be clear.
                    Sender will push OTA FW "unconditionally". That is, it will not use ACK handshaking, just duke out the packets and when done send the final signed crc.
                    In this scenario, an attacker wants to replace the FW with a custom FW that will result in a crc that "belong" to the signed crc. So the attacker listens in to the transmitted packets to determine how crc "evolves" but also has to prevent receiver from receiving these packets. When the signed crc arrives, the attacker needs to delay the reception og this message.
                    There are two options for delaying a signed message.

                    1. Delay reception of nonce request.
                    2. Delay reception of signed message.

                    For 1. As soon as sender transmits nonce request, it waits for the timer (5s) and if timed out, session terminates.

                    For 2. As soon as nonce leaves the receiver, it starts the timer, and if expired (5s) the nonce is purged from memory and session therefore terminates.

                    So, assuming no handshaking is done during firmware transfer, and attacker has to delay the signed message long enough to transfer the bad FW to the receiver before the signed message can be let through. And I don't think 5s is enough for flashing a custom firmware, and if it is, the delay is a public config variable which can be decreased as user see fit.

                    And again, it's important that the sender forces out the FW packets and the final signed message as fast as possible without hesitation to give an attacker minimum time for preparing mischief. I'm not sure how long a typical OTA session lasts, but the signing timer should be set to below that so no bad FW can be snuck in while a signing session is active.

                    Do you feel secure today? No? Start requiring some signatures and feel better tomorrow ;)

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                    • mfalkviddM Offline
                      mfalkviddM Offline
                      mfalkvidd
                      Mod
                      wrote on last edited by
                      #71

                      Thanks for clarifying Anticimex.

                      What you are describing seems reasonable, as long as the attacker is unable to send the fake firmware at the same time as the original firmware is sent by the controller. Sending at the same time (or with some milliseconds delay to allow for adaptation of the firmware to match the original crc) would give the attacker plenty of time to submit their firmware.

                      In a wired network, blocking original traffic while sending fake traffic is a valid attack scenario. Does such a scenario not apply to radio?

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                      • AnticimexA Offline
                        AnticimexA Offline
                        Anticimex
                        Contest Winner
                        wrote on last edited by
                        #72

                        As both sender and receiver are on the same channel, blocking out the receiver from hearing the sender also means the receiver does not hear anything else, so from rf knowledge I have, it ought not be possible to jam a transmitter without also jamming a receiver in this case. Someone might perhaps correct me on this though, but I find it an unlikely care. Also, the jammer has to both jam the sender and at the same time listen in on the sender to determine the crc to fake and that ought also be a tricky problem.

                        Do you feel secure today? No? Start requiring some signatures and feel better tomorrow ;)

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                        • mfalkviddM Offline
                          mfalkviddM Offline
                          mfalkvidd
                          Mod
                          wrote on last edited by mfalkvidd
                          #73

                          ok. That means that my attack scenario 2 is invalid, which is fine. Thanks a lot for bearing with me.

                          If we are sure that the attacker is unable to send while the controller is transmitting, why do we bother with signing the CRC? We are saying that the attacker will be unable to transmit any firmware in the short time frame available during the signing. Why add the complexity of signing the CRC if it doesn't add to security?

                          Edit: I'm not arguing that we should skip the signed message, but we should keep the signed message as standard as a regular signed message and not extend it by including CRC.

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                          • AnticimexA Offline
                            AnticimexA Offline
                            Anticimex
                            Contest Winner
                            wrote on last edited by
                            #74

                            It is still a good idea to validate that the received firmware is not corrupted in "any" way during transfer before it is accepted and booted. CRC offer a reasonable validation in this sense.

                            Do you feel secure today? No? Start requiring some signatures and feel better tomorrow ;)

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                            • mfalkviddM Offline
                              mfalkviddM Offline
                              mfalkvidd
                              Mod
                              wrote on last edited by
                              #75

                              I agree that it is a good idea to try to detect unintentional errors when transmitting the firmware. That doesn't mean the CRC should be signed.

                              Signing the CRC might fool someone that the CRC can be trusted, leading to unnecessary mistakes in the future. Sending the CRC unsigned makes it clear that the CRC can only be used to detect unintentional errors.

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                              • AnticimexA Offline
                                AnticimexA Offline
                                Anticimex
                                Contest Winner
                                wrote on last edited by
                                #76

                                Let's agree to disagree ;) anyway, the OTA security for 2.0.0 is currently under discussion and it might well be that we go for sha256 checksumming. That remains to be seen.

                                Do you feel secure today? No? Start requiring some signatures and feel better tomorrow ;)

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                                • AnticimexA Offline
                                  AnticimexA Offline
                                  Anticimex
                                  Contest Winner
                                  wrote on last edited by
                                  #77

                                  It's been decided that we do go for sha256. It will be hashed by the controller and the receiver will calculate the hash of the received payload. The controller will then send the calculated hash of the true firmware in a separate message (that will be signed if enabled) or possibly several (if we want to use the full 32 byte hash in the verification which we probably want). @tekka and me will communicate on the matter and security related activities can be tracked on the GitHub issue list.

                                  Do you feel secure today? No? Start requiring some signatures and feel better tomorrow ;)

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                                  • AnticimexA Offline
                                    AnticimexA Offline
                                    Anticimex
                                    Contest Winner
                                    wrote on last edited by
                                    #78

                                    @mfalkvidd thanks for challenging OTA security. Although I maintain that crc with signature is safe, we never picked up the topic of repeaters where the ability to inject bad stuff is a very real scenario. But sha256 will put a definite end to any questions about OTA FW authentication. (together with signing, because the hash means nothing if it is not trusted)

                                    Do you feel secure today? No? Start requiring some signatures and feel better tomorrow ;)

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                                    • mfalkviddM Offline
                                      mfalkviddM Offline
                                      mfalkvidd
                                      Mod
                                      wrote on last edited by
                                      #79

                                      Thanks for spending time to elaborate on the plan @Anticimex
                                      Using a cryptographic hash instead of a crc sounds great.

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                                      • pinkkoffP Offline
                                        pinkkoffP Offline
                                        pinkkoff
                                        wrote on last edited by
                                        #80

                                        Please, can anybody write the tutorial how to bootloading OTA? Many of people (and I) can't do this thing without any guide, because don't anderstand what to do=(

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                                        • Suresh MaliS Offline
                                          Suresh MaliS Offline
                                          Suresh Mali
                                          wrote on last edited by
                                          #81

                                          Can I use i2c EEPROM for OTA bootloading with DualOptiboot or it has to be Serial SPI. I was not able to find any documentation on it. I brought a breakout board and it seems to be i2c, and i2c chips are easily available where I live.

                                          http://www.aliexpress.com/item-img/AT24C256-Serial-EEPROM-I2C-Interface-EEPROM-Data-Storage-Module-PIC-NEW/32471353868.html?spm=2114.10010108.100005.10.sd3Dld

                                          Suresh MaliS 1 Reply Last reply
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