nRF5 action!
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@neverdie said in nRF5 Bluetooth action!:
- Especially for new, unprogrammed modules, you need to do a bulk erase at the beginning. I do this by the d00616 trick of saying "Burn bootloader" with a null bootloader. The burning bootloader process fails, as expected, but the side-effect is that it does a bulk-erase before failing.
if bulk erase is needed, then it means it was programmed ;) a fresh new mcu is usually not programmed unless you ask for it to the manufacturer..
Like said above, it could be a problem with module, power issue, usb & cable, dupont cable, jlink, jlink setup, arduino core etc.
@scalz said in nRF5 Bluetooth action!:
if bulk erase is needed, then it means it was programmed a fresh new mcu is usually not programmed unless you ask for it to the manufacturer..
Well, you would think so, and yet it seems I always need to do it anyway on a new module. Go figure.
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@neverdie said in nRF5 Bluetooth action!:
- Especially for new, unprogrammed modules, you need to do a bulk erase at the beginning. I do this by the d00616 trick of saying "Burn bootloader" with a null bootloader. The burning bootloader process fails, as expected, but the side-effect is that it does a bulk-erase before failing.
if bulk erase is needed, then it means it was programmed ;) a fresh new mcu is usually not programmed unless you ask for it to the manufacturer..
Like said above, it could be a problem with module, power issue, usb & cable, dupont cable, jlink, jlink setup, arduino core etc.
@sarg666 said in nRF5 Bluetooth action!:
Do you have the J-Link with only 4 pins? And if so, is the module a QFAAH0? In this konstalation I have the same problem, but with the J-Link V8 and ST-Link V2, the module can be programmed without any problem.
I use the JLink included on the NRF52DK.
@scalz said in nRF5 Bluetooth action!:
if bulk erase is needed, then it means it was programmed ;) a fresh new mcu is usually not programmed unless you ask for it to the manufacturer..
No because the <3$ modules are made to be controlled with an external MCU using serial commands, the same way than ESP8266 for Wifi, so they have a firmware installed.
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For those interested, only 2.55$ for the CDEByte NRF52832 modules :o
[edit] Limited to 2 / customer, but you can buy 2 more in the other CDEByte store here :)
https://www.aliexpress.com/store/product/CDEBYTE-E73-2G4M04S-BLE-4-2-5-0-long-distance-100m-2-4GHz-SMD-ARM-Core/2077046_32820692238.html -
@scalz said in nRF5 Bluetooth action!:
@NeverDie @Nca78
then buy a fresh mcu on Mouser and you'll see by yourself etc ;)
You don't get what I meant, I'm not talking about a specific module design, but in general. the mcu can be accessed by jlink no matter, else how would you program it in first place ..Yes, but when there's a firmware it can be locked, so you must unlock it and erase it to remove softdevice and be able to write something.
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@neverdie said in nRF5 Bluetooth action!:
- Are you powering the nRF51 module externally (separate from the nRF52DK)? It's highly advisable that you do, even though by random luck, you can sometimes succeed without it.
I was at the beginning, but after that I tried with power from the DK. I will try again with external power.
- Especially for new, unprogrammed modules, you need to do a bulk erase at the beginning. I do this by the d00616 trick of saying "Burn bootloader" with a null bootloader. The burning bootloader process fails, as expected, but the side-effect is that it does a bulk-erase before failing.
I can't even reach that step, JLink can't establish the SWD connection so there's no way to erase the chip.
@nca78 said in nRF5 Bluetooth action!:
I tried with power from the DK.
I don't know why, but I seem to recollect that doing it that way may confuse it. Otherwise, I don't know how I would have ended up using a battery pack instead.
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@scalz said in nRF5 Bluetooth action!:
@NeverDie @Nca78
then buy a fresh mcu on Mouser and you'll see by yourself etc ;)
You don't get what I meant, I'm not talking about a specific module design, but in general. the mcu can be accessed by jlink no matter, else how would you program it in first place ..Yes, but when there's a firmware it can be locked, so you must unlock it and erase it to remove softdevice and be able to write something.
@nca78 said in nRF5 Bluetooth action!:
@scalz said in nRF5 Bluetooth action!:
@NeverDie @Nca78
then buy a fresh mcu on Mouser and you'll see by yourself etc ;)
You don't get what I meant, I'm not talking about a specific module design, but in general. the mcu can be accessed by jlink no matter, else how would you program it in first place ..Yes, but when there's a firmware it can be locked, so you must unlock it and erase it to remove softdevice and be able to write something.
are you sure it's locked? I thought neverdie suggested to erase it with jlink.
well, you should choose a better module than funky design modules.. just my opinion, for saving?? 2bucks! -
@nca78 said in nRF5 Bluetooth action!:
@scalz said in nRF5 Bluetooth action!:
@NeverDie @Nca78
then buy a fresh mcu on Mouser and you'll see by yourself etc ;)
You don't get what I meant, I'm not talking about a specific module design, but in general. the mcu can be accessed by jlink no matter, else how would you program it in first place ..Yes, but when there's a firmware it can be locked, so you must unlock it and erase it to remove softdevice and be able to write something.
are you sure it's locked? I thought neverdie suggested to erase it with jlink.
well, you should choose a better module than funky design modules.. just my opinion, for saving?? 2bucks! -
@nca78 said in nRF5 Bluetooth action!:
@scalz said in nRF5 Bluetooth action!:
@NeverDie @Nca78
then buy a fresh mcu on Mouser and you'll see by yourself etc ;)
You don't get what I meant, I'm not talking about a specific module design, but in general. the mcu can be accessed by jlink no matter, else how would you program it in first place ..Yes, but when there's a firmware it can be locked, so you must unlock it and erase it to remove softdevice and be able to write something.
are you sure it's locked? I thought neverdie suggested to erase it with jlink.
well, you should choose a better module than funky design modules.. just my opinion, for saving?? 2bucks!@scalz said in nRF5 Bluetooth action!:
well, you should choose a better module than funky design modules.. just my opinion, for saving?? 2bucks!
Well I was about to complain about my limited choice on Arrow (others ask 75$ shipping :o ), but after checking (again) I see that Arrow now has the Fanstel modules, so I have no reason to complain anymore :D
Too bad the BT832F is not in stock, but BT832 at 4.6$ is great, with the XE version in the gateway to compensate the lower range. -
By the way, any update as to when Nordic will be shipping final silicon on the nRF52840? Seems overdue. I just checked Digikey, and still all they have are the ancient PDK's.
@neverdie said in nRF5 Bluetooth action!:
@scalz Well, what do you think he should use instead? Bare chips? That's not as easy to solder.
Frankly, I'm lazy answering to this question, same for technical stuff. sometimes I feel people miss what I'm trying to explain even if they haven't xp, and I keep repeating it... And the same for my designs, I'm wondering if it's worth the effort when i hear people trying to save 2-5bucks (not rewarding for time&money spent, not asking money btw), or want to reinvent cheaper&less quality variants (why not teamworking, not interested in infinite challenge, waste money&time) or complaining it's too hard to solder, did you read my many redondant advice in the forum, I don't handsolder tiny dfn, I reflow them, far far easier&quicker.
So that's settled, this is why I delayed my releases, until i change my mind, and I'm playing with software.
Sorry I don't want to look pedantic, not targeted against you especially, just tired ;)@Nca78 cool
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@neverdie said in nRF5 Bluetooth action!:
@scalz Well, what do you think he should use instead? Bare chips? That's not as easy to solder.
Frankly, I'm lazy answering to this question, same for technical stuff. sometimes I feel people miss what I'm trying to explain even if they haven't xp, and I keep repeating it... And the same for my designs, I'm wondering if it's worth the effort when i hear people trying to save 2-5bucks (not rewarding for time&money spent, not asking money btw), or want to reinvent cheaper&less quality variants (why not teamworking, not interested in infinite challenge, waste money&time) or complaining it's too hard to solder, did you read my many redondant advice in the forum, I don't handsolder tiny dfn, I reflow them, far far easier&quicker.
So that's settled, this is why I delayed my releases, until i change my mind, and I'm playing with software.
Sorry I don't want to look pedantic, not targeted against you especially, just tired ;)@Nca78 cool
@scalz For comparison, I feel like the nRF24L01 is also pretty much a waste of time, given that better performing alternatives exist, and yet it's the most popular radio on the mysensors forum, possibly because it's so cheap and easy to wire up.
You have unusually high skills. A lot of people on this forum just want a list of throughole parts from Aliexpress that they can connect together using dupont wires. So, there's quite a range of skill levels. The biggest barrier I see is people not wanting to hand solder (let alone reflow) SMD parts onto a custom PCB. I think that's partly why the openhardware thing hasn't gotten much traction. -
@scalz said in nRF5 Bluetooth action!:
@neverdie said in nRF5 Bluetooth action!:
@scalz Well, what do you think he should use instead? Bare chips? That's not as easy to solder.
Frankly, I'm lazy answering to this question, same for technical stuff. sometimes I feel people miss what I'm trying to explain even if they haven't xp, and I keep repeating it... And the same for my designs, I'm wondering if it's worth the effort when i hear people trying to save 2-5bucks (not rewarding for time&money spent, not asking money btw), or want to reinvent cheaper&less quality variants (why not teamworking, not interested in infinite challenge, waste money&time) or complaining it's too hard to solder, did you read my many redondant advice in the forum, I don't handsolder tiny dfn, I reflow them, far far easier&quicker.
So that's settled, this is why I delayed my releases, until i change my mind, and I'm playing with software.
Sorry I don't want to look pedantic, not targeted against you especially, just tired ;)Reflow is nice and easy when you know how to do it, but not everyone has the space and money for it, and is willing to spend the necessary time to learn how to do it well. You need oven (that you usually need to modify), you need to buy stencils, you need to buy solder paste and keep it fresh in a separate fridge if you don't want to intoxicate your family when putting it in the kitchen fridge, you need to test/tune the process etc etc It's not for everyone. I tried, I have bought a hotplate (oven is too big and too expensive) and hot air gun, I ordered stencils to make some tests, but I can't get decent quality solder paste. Local shops sold me stuff that was way too old, when it comes from AliExpress it's low quality and it spent weeks at 30+ degrees, at Arrows it's either 50-100$ (that will end mostly wasted because I have no space for dedicated fridge), unavailable (maker paste) or "hazmat" so only sent by ground meaning not available for me. Life is hard :D
About the price I dont think everyone is ready to sacrifice quality to save a few $, I see people buying NModule PCBs at 25$ or more through openhardware.io for example, when they could buy much cheaper when ordering directly. I don't think those people will cry if components on a board cost 15-20$ instead of 10-15 but offer better range or reliability, lower power consumption etc.
About the "funky modules", yes they are not high quality but they still do the job (and way better than atmega + nrf24 clone), and when I first bought them I had no good alternative to get such a compact module, I would have bought them even if more expensive because compact modules on AliExpress or Ebay were either much bigger or with chip antenna, Arrow only had a Rigado module with LGA pins and other reputable shops have rip off shipping costs. Now I see Fanstel modules nearly as small, with better quality, FCC registration, low EMI etc etc at Arrow it would be stupid to continue, so of course I will not buy them anymore and redesign my board for the Fanstel. And if I make it public then I can provide a reliable source for the module, everyone can order from them with no shipping costs and 100% reliability. Way worth the few extra $.
And it's not always about reinventing things, it's about making things yourself and learning, too. I want to learn about ARM processors, bluetooth etc so to avoid having to learn anything at the same time I leave the reflowing, antenna tuning etc aside at the moment and use modules. If in the middle of this process I make a board that people with basic soldering skills can make themselves then how is it negative ? Those who take the MySensors hobby seriously will still favor your board because of the top notch quality and components used, there will also be a bunch of people interested in the complete board, but I think it's also great if people with lower technical skills but thirst for DIY can have something, too, even if "lower quality". Of course that won't be my "22" board, that's why I was thinking about a "33" version with more space to put bigger components (big SMDs or sensor breakout boards) and extension via MySX connector. Not sure if I will ever make it, and I hope it's not part of what is making you lose your motivation to release AEOS, because I'm waiting for it and it would be a good occasion to retry reflow soldering ;)
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@scalz said in nRF5 Bluetooth action!:
@neverdie said in nRF5 Bluetooth action!:
@scalz Well, what do you think he should use instead? Bare chips? That's not as easy to solder.
Frankly, I'm lazy answering to this question, same for technical stuff. sometimes I feel people miss what I'm trying to explain even if they haven't xp, and I keep repeating it... And the same for my designs, I'm wondering if it's worth the effort when i hear people trying to save 2-5bucks (not rewarding for time&money spent, not asking money btw), or want to reinvent cheaper&less quality variants (why not teamworking, not interested in infinite challenge, waste money&time) or complaining it's too hard to solder, did you read my many redondant advice in the forum, I don't handsolder tiny dfn, I reflow them, far far easier&quicker.
So that's settled, this is why I delayed my releases, until i change my mind, and I'm playing with software.
Sorry I don't want to look pedantic, not targeted against you especially, just tired ;)Reflow is nice and easy when you know how to do it, but not everyone has the space and money for it, and is willing to spend the necessary time to learn how to do it well. You need oven (that you usually need to modify), you need to buy stencils, you need to buy solder paste and keep it fresh in a separate fridge if you don't want to intoxicate your family when putting it in the kitchen fridge, you need to test/tune the process etc etc It's not for everyone. I tried, I have bought a hotplate (oven is too big and too expensive) and hot air gun, I ordered stencils to make some tests, but I can't get decent quality solder paste. Local shops sold me stuff that was way too old, when it comes from AliExpress it's low quality and it spent weeks at 30+ degrees, at Arrows it's either 50-100$ (that will end mostly wasted because I have no space for dedicated fridge), unavailable (maker paste) or "hazmat" so only sent by ground meaning not available for me. Life is hard :D
About the price I dont think everyone is ready to sacrifice quality to save a few $, I see people buying NModule PCBs at 25$ or more through openhardware.io for example, when they could buy much cheaper when ordering directly. I don't think those people will cry if components on a board cost 15-20$ instead of 10-15 but offer better range or reliability, lower power consumption etc.
About the "funky modules", yes they are not high quality but they still do the job (and way better than atmega + nrf24 clone), and when I first bought them I had no good alternative to get such a compact module, I would have bought them even if more expensive because compact modules on AliExpress or Ebay were either much bigger or with chip antenna, Arrow only had a Rigado module with LGA pins and other reputable shops have rip off shipping costs. Now I see Fanstel modules nearly as small, with better quality, FCC registration, low EMI etc etc at Arrow it would be stupid to continue, so of course I will not buy them anymore and redesign my board for the Fanstel. And if I make it public then I can provide a reliable source for the module, everyone can order from them with no shipping costs and 100% reliability. Way worth the few extra $.
And it's not always about reinventing things, it's about making things yourself and learning, too. I want to learn about ARM processors, bluetooth etc so to avoid having to learn anything at the same time I leave the reflowing, antenna tuning etc aside at the moment and use modules. If in the middle of this process I make a board that people with basic soldering skills can make themselves then how is it negative ? Those who take the MySensors hobby seriously will still favor your board because of the top notch quality and components used, there will also be a bunch of people interested in the complete board, but I think it's also great if people with lower technical skills but thirst for DIY can have something, too, even if "lower quality". Of course that won't be my "22" board, that's why I was thinking about a "33" version with more space to put bigger components (big SMDs or sensor breakout boards) and extension via MySX connector. Not sure if I will ever make it, and I hope it's not part of what is making you lose your motivation to release AEOS, because I'm waiting for it and it would be a good occasion to retry reflow soldering ;)
@nca78 said in nRF5 Bluetooth action!:
you need to buy solder paste and keep it fresh in a separate fridge if you don't want to intoxicate your family when putting it in the kitchen fridge
Yikes! I didn't know there was a risk of that happening.
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@neverdie said in nRF5 Bluetooth action!:
@scalz Well, what do you think he should use instead? Bare chips? That's not as easy to solder.
Frankly, I'm lazy answering to this question, same for technical stuff. sometimes I feel people miss what I'm trying to explain even if they haven't xp, and I keep repeating it... And the same for my designs, I'm wondering if it's worth the effort when i hear people trying to save 2-5bucks (not rewarding for time&money spent, not asking money btw), or want to reinvent cheaper&less quality variants (why not teamworking, not interested in infinite challenge, waste money&time) or complaining it's too hard to solder, did you read my many redondant advice in the forum, I don't handsolder tiny dfn, I reflow them, far far easier&quicker.
So that's settled, this is why I delayed my releases, until i change my mind, and I'm playing with software.
Sorry I don't want to look pedantic, not targeted against you especially, just tired ;)@Nca78 cool
@neverdie said in nRF5 Bluetooth action!:
@nca78 said in nRF5 Bluetooth action!:
you need to buy solder paste and keep it fresh in a separate fridge if you don't want to intoxicate your family when putting it in the kitchen fridge
Yikes! I didn't know there was a risk of that happening.
Well it's probably not a real problem, but I don't want to take risks with my 4yo chidren.
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I do think a lot of people really underestimate the toxicity of getting solder paste onto their hands. I always use disposable neoprene gloves when handling it, and try to throw away anything that comes into contact with it. You definitely don't want to run the risk of unintentionally ingesting that stuff. AFAIK, the neurotoxicity is permanent damage.
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By the way, I never got to the point where reflow was "nice and easy" with tiny pad chips. But that's just me. Operator error, I'm sure. It ended up taking so long to get a good outcome that I just decided it wasn't worth the time. Maybe I'll revisit it at a future date.
Anyway, everyone has their limits. I mean reflowing the gazillion tiny components on a HopeRF module, for instance. That doesn't look easy to me, even if I knew what I was doing.
@scalz Anyway, it's great that you are doing it. You're an inspiration for us all.
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