Everything nRF52840
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It seems that Nordic just hasn't developed easy to use abstraction layer for Bluetooth 5. The question is: has TI? I guess maybe before ordering the launchpad, I should download TI's software and have a look.
Also, is it better to have a single awesome radio that does everything at 2.4Ghz or two humdrum radios, one with great range at sub 1ghz and the other with limited range at 2.4ghz? The two radio solution will always have a higher hardware cost and a bigger footprint, so getting cheap modules might (?) be difficult even down the road. I just don't know.
Thoughts?
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@heinzv (or anybody) Do you happen to know what the Tx power and Rx sensitivity is on the bluetooth that's in the Samsung Galaxy S8? I'm guessing that it's relatively weak, in which case I suppose launchpad P1 might make more sense than P2.
@neverdie I have not found any hint on BLE Rx Tx sensitivity (Rx) or signal strength (Tx), but I assume that it's not that high as after a few meters the device connections are lost (SmatGear S3), Headphone etc. I would say less than 10m.
My TI CC1352P1 is ordered and I guess it will arrive by end of the week. Meanwhile the Nordic USB dongles are also on the way, so I'll start with the nRF52840 latest at the next weekend and I assume I will have the first experience with the Nordic MCU's.
Regarding the TI MCU: Although in the advertisment video it was explained why you would have two radios at the same time on the same chip, but I rather see it as a possibility to use one or the other best fitting the usage it is built for without attaching another modul. But I'll wait for the first set of real live tests under different conditions (for both nRF52 and TI CC1352). And also how convinient the IDE's and libraries can be used.
Looking at the TI homepage, the CC1352(p) is not even yet available but announved for Q3/2018 which should be now or soon. Thene I hope we can get first modules. I wonder where @scalz will get the MCU's (even the raw chip's)?
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I've thought it through.
Presently the nRF52840 and all the TI Bluetooth 5 launchpads have a receive sensitivity of -103 at 2.4Ghz. None of them are using an LNA at this time.
I think my interest in these chips is mostly tied to doing very power efficient remote control wakeups, which I previously proved I could do using the PPI on an nRF52832. I used the PPI to wake up every 100ms and check for received packets without waking up the mcu, thereby saving power. I could do the same thing with the nRF52840, but with the advantage of its greater receive sensitivity. I'm not sure that TI has anything equivalent to PPI, but even if it did, it would have no advantages for this use case.
For everything else, I'm happy using LoRa modules, because their range/coverage are just fantastic, and at around $3 the Ra-01 LoRa modules are very inexpensive.
Meanwhile, I'll track developments at TI and see what becomes available. It looks like TI is doing good work.
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@NeverDie they have sort of equivalent for processing IOs, sensors, i2c etc without waking up the mcu. it's called Sensor Controller (accessible by code or they also provide a small ide for it).
about LORA I've never been really interested in it, I prefer to have my own "micro" network than being a part of a larger network. I would also prefer narrowband.
Sure if you use LORA nodes, maybe narrowband is maybe not the best bet for you. in some cases, widespectrum LORA can have range issues, not heard, when narrowband is used (they made a video+appnote about coexistence)
My need is subghz for long range reliable delivery + BLE for shorter range stuff.., using one broadband antenna or two differents of any kind, to be able to use a module or a bare ic (sometimes a module doesn't fit well in design regarding placement of the module or the antenna orientation&keepout area, so with two modules it's "worse"), and I've been very disappointed to see Nordic changed its mcu footprint (needs premium pcb, and more soldering care). That's why TI picked my curiosity (it ticked all my checkboxes, all in one).
But you're right if you feel more confortable with nrf, it's nice mcus too. Both needs some work anyway (one mcu needs BLE/MySensors, the other needs to get its dualmode compatible with MySensors messages&serial api) -
@NeverDie they have sort of equivalent for processing IOs, sensors, i2c etc without waking up the mcu. it's called Sensor Controller (accessible by code or they also provide a small ide for it).
about LORA I've never been really interested in it, I prefer to have my own "micro" network than being a part of a larger network. I would also prefer narrowband.
Sure if you use LORA nodes, maybe narrowband is maybe not the best bet for you. in some cases, widespectrum LORA can have range issues, not heard, when narrowband is used (they made a video+appnote about coexistence)
My need is subghz for long range reliable delivery + BLE for shorter range stuff.., using one broadband antenna or two differents of any kind, to be able to use a module or a bare ic (sometimes a module doesn't fit well in design regarding placement of the module or the antenna orientation&keepout area, so with two modules it's "worse"), and I've been very disappointed to see Nordic changed its mcu footprint (needs premium pcb, and more soldering care). That's why TI picked my curiosity (it ticked all my checkboxes, all in one).
But you're right if you feel more confortable with nrf, it's nice mcus too. Both needs some work anyway (one mcu needs BLE/MySensors, the other needs to get its dualmode compatible with MySensors messages&serial api)@scalz I found this: https://training.ti.com/simplelink-academy-introduction-sensor-controller , which says:
Also, the sensor controller has not any direct interface to the radio or system flash.
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@NeverDie yes. SC is also accessible from app, it can be independant. If goal would be for sort of lowpower listenmode, there are code examples too, not the goal of SC, sure (no link with rf). I don't think I tried it, but will take a look once I've other stuff ok.
I guess, even if PPI doesn't wake up mcu, the task function with a timer still uses somes power.Maybe you should keep on nrf if you feel more familiar with these. Truth is I have played too with it, but I stopped on my side, a while ago..and started to take a look at TI (so I could say I'm as familiar or maybe "more" with TI now,..). And perhaps, I already said it, but I'm not interested to pay 12$ for bt840f (limited accessible IOs), or less money but with 840 ceramic antenna. When for the same price I can assemble myself a dualband mcu and pick antennas I need. Like people says, pick what fits best your needs (and the application) :)
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@NeverDie yes. SC is also accessible from app, it can be independant. If goal would be for sort of lowpower listenmode, there are code examples too, not the goal of SC, sure (no link with rf). I don't think I tried it, but will take a look once I've other stuff ok.
I guess, even if PPI doesn't wake up mcu, the task function with a timer still uses somes power.Maybe you should keep on nrf if you feel more familiar with these. Truth is I have played too with it, but I stopped on my side, a while ago..and started to take a look at TI (so I could say I'm as familiar or maybe "more" with TI now,..). And perhaps, I already said it, but I'm not interested to pay 12$ for bt840f (limited accessible IOs), or less money but with 840 ceramic antenna. When for the same price I can assemble myself a dualband mcu and pick antennas I need. Like people says, pick what fits best your needs (and the application) :)
@scalz regarding LoRA (RFM95), I think you might confuse LoRa with LoRaWAN. LoRa is a protocol and you can have your own "mico network" (so do I). It is the most efficient and easy to use 868MHz radio (in my opinion) and has long range and high energy efficiency and cost is low (a little bit more than RFM69).
The nRF52840 has a good amount of Flash/RAM (1MB/256kB) and good sleep current even keeping RTC and RAM up or even using radio Rx.But the TI MCU's like the CC1352P is certainly a very interesting new candidate and it look very very promising with it's BLE 5.0, ZigBee AND 868MHz radio. And I like the SC coprocessor. No doubt that look very attractive. Thus I ordered the CC1352P1 Lunchpad. But that seem to be the only available option to get this MCU and this is for learning purposes only.
When I look at the TI product page it says Status: PREVIEW, no stock: http://www.ti.com/product/CC1352P/samplebuy
I have also seen anounced prices with 10 US$ for the chip itself.
Not sure when it will be really available, get a reasonable price and modules offered (such as for any other MCU's like nRF52).
Same story for the CC2652R, also in PREVIEW.
If you have sources or even PCB's (designed by you) for this MCU's, I would be eager to order and test it. -
@heinzv
yes you're right about lora, and that they're using some juice too ;) (they can even be compatible with a rfm69 when you take a look at the datasheet. TI's too though).
I know about nrf52840 power modes, I just replied about PPI feature (depending what you implement, it can't be completely free).
About Ti mcus, they are new and available at their store only. about sharing my work.. when I'll get time. for the moment I'm very busy (with my job too). In the meantime, you still can play with their devboard and try their courses, or energia. -
@scalz and @NeverDie today I got my nRF52840 dongles (6 pieces) as well as the TI CC1352P1 launchpad. Now the fun will begin (latest at the weekend)
See the picture below (the dongle in blue and the launchpad in red).
If you have already some more code to share for testing (send/receive, I2C sensor read etc.) please post it (some code was postetd by NeverDie) other wise I'm looking at the Nordic pages, they provide a lot of examples (I will probably use/try Segger).
For the TI part, I only have one launchpad, so I have to verify, if I can use BLE 5.0 to communicate with my mobile or between TI CC1352 and nRF52 ...
Not sure if the TI can also communicate with the CC1101 at 868MHz (using the Sub 1GHz capabilities) using the same modem settings. So a lot to find out.
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@scalz and @NeverDie today I got my nRF52840 dongles (6 pieces) as well as the TI CC1352P1 launchpad. Now the fun will begin (latest at the weekend)
See the picture below (the dongle in blue and the launchpad in red).
If you have already some more code to share for testing (send/receive, I2C sensor read etc.) please post it (some code was postetd by NeverDie) other wise I'm looking at the Nordic pages, they provide a lot of examples (I will probably use/try Segger).
For the TI part, I only have one launchpad, so I have to verify, if I can use BLE 5.0 to communicate with my mobile or between TI CC1352 and nRF52 ...
Not sure if the TI can also communicate with the CC1101 at 868MHz (using the Sub 1GHz capabilities) using the same modem settings. So a lot to find out.@heinzv Please do keep us posted with your impressions as you develop them.
I found out that Nordic does have OTA firmware updates, though it looks rather laborioius to set up: https://devzone.nordicsemi.com/b/blog/posts/getting-started-with-nordics-secure-dfu-bootloader
Maybe it's easier with TI (?).
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@NeverDie okay, a very first testing yesterday late-night when setting up the Segger / nRF52(840) tool chain and a very quick dongle testing
I used the nRFconnect and uploaded all 5 demo/test applications which worked. No big achievement but just a very basic testing (maybe not even worth to mention)
Here is the result of the BLE app test: I did the BLE scan with the dongle and it found some devices around such as the BLE WiT power plug with the energy meter. Thene I did the oposite and installed the nRF connect on the Android Galaxy S8 phone and scanned for the nRF dongle.
Attached the two results (one from the dongle and one from the mobile phone)
As you see the Galaxy S8 finds all BLE WiT smart plugs in the flat (also the ones which are in other rooms) while the nRF dongle sees only the one which is close in the same room.
I would assume, that the Galaxy S8 has a much better BLE antenna than the dongle (which has almost no antenna), but what I interpret the RSSI, the dongle reports a better signal strength of the WiT powermeter in the room?!
Today I received also the breakout PCB's for the nRF52832, thus I'll probably try to do a sender/receiver test with them using one as mySensors Gateway and one as mySensors Node (both in nRF24 mode). Not sure if the compile/build will work, because I have to also provide the proper pin-map (as the E73 module is not mapped in the Arduino IDE).
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@NeverDie okay, a very first testing yesterday late-night when setting up the Segger / nRF52(840) tool chain and a very quick dongle testing
I used the nRFconnect and uploaded all 5 demo/test applications which worked. No big achievement but just a very basic testing (maybe not even worth to mention)
Here is the result of the BLE app test: I did the BLE scan with the dongle and it found some devices around such as the BLE WiT power plug with the energy meter. Thene I did the oposite and installed the nRF connect on the Android Galaxy S8 phone and scanned for the nRF dongle.
Attached the two results (one from the dongle and one from the mobile phone)
As you see the Galaxy S8 finds all BLE WiT smart plugs in the flat (also the ones which are in other rooms) while the nRF dongle sees only the one which is close in the same room.
I would assume, that the Galaxy S8 has a much better BLE antenna than the dongle (which has almost no antenna), but what I interpret the RSSI, the dongle reports a better signal strength of the WiT powermeter in the room?!
Today I received also the breakout PCB's for the nRF52832, thus I'll probably try to do a sender/receiver test with them using one as mySensors Gateway and one as mySensors Node (both in nRF24 mode). Not sure if the compile/build will work, because I have to also provide the proper pin-map (as the E73 module is not mapped in the Arduino IDE).
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Found these relatively inexpensive TI modules:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/REYAX-RYB080I-BT-4-2-5-0-Bluetooth-module-BLE-TI-CC2640R2F-Antenna-AT-Command/183413364598?hash=item2ab449d776:g:dOEAAOSwOZtbRu7Athat presumably are compatible, at some level, with ti's cc2640R2F launchpad
Also, I found the info on how to do the OAD (over the air download): http://dev.ti.com/tirex/content/simplelink_cc2640r2_sdk_1_30_00_25/docs/blestack/ble_sw_dev_guide/html/oad/oad.html
Regarding the Nordic gear, I'm hoping that micropython, if installed, might prove to be easiest for OTA updates, since, in theory, a micropython app should be able to update itself through its inherent REPL process. It turns out that maybe because of the BBC micro bit, micropython runs on the nRF51. In general, though, it seems like the ESP8266 has a lot more micropython support.
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@NeverDie I'm still at the basics (where you have been probably one year ago). I have now soldered my nRF52832 modules (the E73...B from EBYTE) to the breakout boards and tried to find the best way to program and flash them.
I started with Segger Studio and with ST-Link upgraded to Black Magic Probe but as far as I have understood it supports only their own J-Link HW for flashing (at least the J-Link EDU is required). I also converted a ST-Link Dongle to a J-Link dongle but that can only flash STM MCU's (license restrictions).I have then tried to use Aruino Studio with all 3 dongle types (Black Magic, J-Link and ST-Link). I was only successful by using ST-Link. It does flashes the sketches and it runs (just used a simple blink example for flash testing).
But using the ST-Link (V2), there is no serial devices and thus no Serial Windows for log output (Serial.println()).
I've also tried to use the Black Magics with the GDB but it did not work either and I found it also not convinient with the commandline.So what are you using for flashing with Arduino Studio (with it's limited nRF52 support) and flashing with Segger Studio an what are you using for debugging and logging (print lines to output/serial ...)?
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@NeverDie I'm still at the basics (where you have been probably one year ago). I have now soldered my nRF52832 modules (the E73...B from EBYTE) to the breakout boards and tried to find the best way to program and flash them.
I started with Segger Studio and with ST-Link upgraded to Black Magic Probe but as far as I have understood it supports only their own J-Link HW for flashing (at least the J-Link EDU is required). I also converted a ST-Link Dongle to a J-Link dongle but that can only flash STM MCU's (license restrictions).I have then tried to use Aruino Studio with all 3 dongle types (Black Magic, J-Link and ST-Link). I was only successful by using ST-Link. It does flashes the sketches and it runs (just used a simple blink example for flash testing).
But using the ST-Link (V2), there is no serial devices and thus no Serial Windows for log output (Serial.println()).
I've also tried to use the Black Magics with the GDB but it did not work either and I found it also not convinient with the commandline.So what are you using for flashing with Arduino Studio (with it's limited nRF52 support) and flashing with Segger Studio an what are you using for debugging and logging (print lines to output/serial ...)?
@heinzv For the NRF52832, try using the MySensors MyBoardNRF5 board type. In MyBoardNRF5.h, there is a section for the serial interface. Set PIN_SERIAL_TX to the pin you want to get serial output from. Set PIN_Serial_RX to some unused pin. It isn't used anyway. (A tip I got from @NeverDie).
I like the Black Magic Probe because it has both the SWD and Serial in one device, but you could program with the ST-Link and listen to Serial with an FTDI. I hear J-Link is the best, but have not used it. Might try it now that I know there is an educational version. -
@NeverDie I'm still at the basics (where you have been probably one year ago). I have now soldered my nRF52832 modules (the E73...B from EBYTE) to the breakout boards and tried to find the best way to program and flash them.
I started with Segger Studio and with ST-Link upgraded to Black Magic Probe but as far as I have understood it supports only their own J-Link HW for flashing (at least the J-Link EDU is required). I also converted a ST-Link Dongle to a J-Link dongle but that can only flash STM MCU's (license restrictions).I have then tried to use Aruino Studio with all 3 dongle types (Black Magic, J-Link and ST-Link). I was only successful by using ST-Link. It does flashes the sketches and it runs (just used a simple blink example for flash testing).
But using the ST-Link (V2), there is no serial devices and thus no Serial Windows for log output (Serial.println()).
I've also tried to use the Black Magics with the GDB but it did not work either and I found it also not convinient with the commandline.So what are you using for flashing with Arduino Studio (with it's limited nRF52 support) and flashing with Segger Studio an what are you using for debugging and logging (print lines to output/serial ...)?
@heinzv I use the Nordic development kit for flashing. At least for me, it's the easiest.
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@heinzv I use the Nordic development kit for flashing. At least for me, it's the easiest.
@neverdie said in Everything nRF52840:
@heinzv I use the Nordic development kit for flashing. At least for me, it's the easiest.
Same here. NFR52 DK, works perfectly with Segger ES and I just do drag & drop of the compiled file to the virtual drive of the DK when using Arduino.
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@heinzv I use the Nordic development kit for flashing. At least for me, it's the easiest.
@neverdie and @Nca78 thanks for the quick response, I have ordered the nRF52840 DK from Nordic (via Mouser). That works with Segger and also with Arduino Studio too (for the simple and existing 52832 projects like mySensors)?
And fo the Arduino Studio (or VS Code) is there a serial terminal for debug output too?
How to you flash then the bare nRF52 modules which have only the SWD interface (I have plenty of them)?@nagelc I have again tried my Black Magic Probe Dongle with Arduino IDE, but it does not yet work for me (maybe I still have not understood it). In Arduino Studio I have tge GDB serial port but neither the upload works properly nor I have understood how to use it with the GDB debug window.
I attach the devices (Windows 10) and the output from Arduino IDE. Maybe you can give me further hints:
I used a simple blink sketch which works with ST-LInk V2 upload but not with BMP. Here is the output from the upload:
Sketch uses 3600 bytes (0%) of program storage space. Maximum is 409600 bytes.
Target voltage: unknown
Remote debugging using \.\COM58
Available Targets:
No. Att Driver
1 Nordic nRF52
2 Nordic nRF52 Access Port
Attaching to Remote target
0x00000ad0 in ?? ()
Reading symbols from nRF52832_Blink.ino.elf...done.
Loading section .text, size 0xe10 lma 0x1c000
Loading section .ARM.exidx, size 0x8 lma 0x1ce10
Loading section .data, size 0x74 lma 0x1ce18
Start address 0x1c5fc, load size 3724
Transfer rate: 26 KB/sec, 620 bytes/write.
Temporary breakpoint 1 at 0x1cb4c: file D:\mcdev\arduino\portable\packages\sandeepmistry\hardware\nRF5\0.6.0\cores\nRF5\main.cpp, line 28.
Starting program: C:\Users\internet\AppData\Local\Temp\arduino_build_189520\nRF52832_Blink.ino.elf
Note: automatically using hardware breakpoints for read-only addresses.
An error occurred while uploading the sketch -
@neverdie and @Nca78 thanks for the quick response, I have ordered the nRF52840 DK from Nordic (via Mouser). That works with Segger and also with Arduino Studio too (for the simple and existing 52832 projects like mySensors)?
And fo the Arduino Studio (or VS Code) is there a serial terminal for debug output too?
How to you flash then the bare nRF52 modules which have only the SWD interface (I have plenty of them)?@nagelc I have again tried my Black Magic Probe Dongle with Arduino IDE, but it does not yet work for me (maybe I still have not understood it). In Arduino Studio I have tge GDB serial port but neither the upload works properly nor I have understood how to use it with the GDB debug window.
I attach the devices (Windows 10) and the output from Arduino IDE. Maybe you can give me further hints:
I used a simple blink sketch which works with ST-LInk V2 upload but not with BMP. Here is the output from the upload:
Sketch uses 3600 bytes (0%) of program storage space. Maximum is 409600 bytes.
Target voltage: unknown
Remote debugging using \.\COM58
Available Targets:
No. Att Driver
1 Nordic nRF52
2 Nordic nRF52 Access Port
Attaching to Remote target
0x00000ad0 in ?? ()
Reading symbols from nRF52832_Blink.ino.elf...done.
Loading section .text, size 0xe10 lma 0x1c000
Loading section .ARM.exidx, size 0x8 lma 0x1ce10
Loading section .data, size 0x74 lma 0x1ce18
Start address 0x1c5fc, load size 3724
Transfer rate: 26 KB/sec, 620 bytes/write.
Temporary breakpoint 1 at 0x1cb4c: file D:\mcdev\arduino\portable\packages\sandeepmistry\hardware\nRF5\0.6.0\cores\nRF5\main.cpp, line 28.
Starting program: C:\Users\internet\AppData\Local\Temp\arduino_build_189520\nRF52832_Blink.ino.elf
Note: automatically using hardware breakpoints for read-only addresses.
An error occurred while uploading the sketch@heinzv I haven't ever used BMP, but I'm guessing that maybe you need to bulk erase your target device first. That would remove any read-only protection. If so, you only need to do it once. After that, it should upload OK.
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@heinzv I haven't ever used BMP, but I'm guessing that maybe you need to bulk erase your target device first. That would remove any read-only protection. If so, you only need to do it once. After that, it should upload OK.
