A smart home vs an automated home
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Instead of going off on wild tangents about privacy and the like, I suggest we re-focus by asking what good or useful thing we might accomplish if we could make the thermal 8x8 pixel sensor work. After all, this is the first thread to consider it, and it would be a shame to waste the opportunity.
@NeverDie I agree but it is pretty much related as I really don't think image processing could be done on a microcontroller without the help of a backend server that would actually collects all data from sensors, correlates them and then give them a meaning that can actually be used.
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In that case, I suggest @wallyllama start a new thread devoted just to the sensor and how best to make use of it. I wager something can be accomplished without resorting to full blown data fusion. Plainly if you tie your success to difficult, unsolved research problems that have long resisted solution, you will quickly bog down.
The two obvious things are: direction of movement and, as has already been mentioned, a finer location granularity within a room. Since it's thermal, it could know that you're sitting on the couch even if you're not moving. That's big. Just think of all the occupancy sensors that wrongly conclude the room is empty if nothing is moving. We've all had that experience, I'm sure.
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You guys are thinking of a complex solution to this that is a single package that does it all. What if you dumb down the scenario a bit. Don't try to think of making a determination using only one type of sensor. After doing some more research on the guy that did the infrared doorway sensors, he said that it was a pretty reliable way of counting room occupants. Maybe you use the infrared doorway sensors as a way of counting the number of people in an area. Now you have a reliable way of counting the number of people in an area, now you start looking at ways of identifying who those occupants are if needed. Thinking in a broad sense, putting some fuzzy logic behind data from a number of other sensors, whatever that may be, may give you some kind of fingerprint for a person that could be used to identify people. using that approach may give you a little better accuracy too depending on the sensors and logic you use.
Vera Plus running UI7 with MySensors, Sonoffs and 1-Wire devices
Visit my website for more Bits, Bytes and Ramblings from me: http://dan.bemowski.info/ -
You guys are thinking of a complex solution to this that is a single package that does it all. What if you dumb down the scenario a bit. Don't try to think of making a determination using only one type of sensor. After doing some more research on the guy that did the infrared doorway sensors, he said that it was a pretty reliable way of counting room occupants. Maybe you use the infrared doorway sensors as a way of counting the number of people in an area. Now you have a reliable way of counting the number of people in an area, now you start looking at ways of identifying who those occupants are if needed. Thinking in a broad sense, putting some fuzzy logic behind data from a number of other sensors, whatever that may be, may give you some kind of fingerprint for a person that could be used to identify people. using that approach may give you a little better accuracy too depending on the sensors and logic you use.
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@dbemowsk that "fuzzy logic" is what big companies are spending millions to develop and that's why I'm not expecting much from a few sensors and Arduinos
@gohan I get it, but at this stage, any bits and pieces that you can put together that can even do a fraction of it is better than nothing. I figure if I can start with the counting people part and somehow layer things on from there I'll be a little ahead of the game.
I don't want anyone to worry that you are hijacking my thread. Speak freely, this is how good ideas come to be. Precisely why I started this thread. I figured it would spark some creativity from the community.
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So looking at the MySensors end of this, would it be too far off to think of adding a new node type, "person". A person node could have customizable properties that would allow you to define different useful bits of data related to that person. For example, preferred room temperature, or preferred light level. Heck, you could even have a room or area property that would get set when the system sees you move to a different area. So when you do figure out better occupancy sensing, you can automatically set user preferred light levels and room temps based on who is in the room, and dial them down after a person leaves the room. If you have more than one person in a room, it could take an average of the properties of all in the room to determine a setting like room temperature to provide a happy medium.
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I think @dbemowsk is hinting at something that fits my understanding of "emergent behavior", individual simple things interact and create more complex results. How many, and whom are different questions. Counters in doorways plus a list of whose phones are at home, maybe add in some hostorical data of who likes to sit in which chair. There are probably better combinations, but that is what I got from hisnrecent comments.
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So looking at the MySensors end of this, would it be too far off to think of adding a new node type, "person". A person node could have customizable properties that would allow you to define different useful bits of data related to that person. For example, preferred room temperature, or preferred light level. Heck, you could even have a room or area property that would get set when the system sees you move to a different area. So when you do figure out better occupancy sensing, you can automatically set user preferred light levels and room temps based on who is in the room, and dial them down after a person leaves the room. If you have more than one person in a room, it could take an average of the properties of all in the room to determine a setting like room temperature to provide a happy medium.
@dbemowsk said in A smart home vs an automated home:
So looking at the MySensors end of this, would it be too far off to think of adding a new node type, "person". A person node could have customizable properties that would allow you to define different useful bits of data related to that person.
I'd like to hear more about how you would use it. Below is my two pennies worth.
My thinking is that mysensors is a transport for relatively simple data, like state, value, counts etc, things nodes would need to set the environment up, or report back to central command.
A complex object like "person" could have all kinds of attributes and preferences, which would modify values sent to nodes. Example the curtain controller knows to open during the day, close at night, and maybe close for an hour at 10 am in the summer when the sun shines directly in and heats up the house( could also be a light sensor), but if the weather says it is clear, and kent is in the living room and it is night open the curtains up, and that would be an override coming from central. The node controlling the curtain doesnt need to know it is me in the room, it just needs to accept the modifiers.
I say this mostly because as @gohan points out arduinos arent terribly powerful, and telling them too much info may just confuse them.
I liken it to the body. E.g. your finger doesnt have to know if you are walking up as you are pushing a doorbell, it just extends on command and reports that it made contact, moved forward slightly and hit a stop. Your spine may get involved if the finger reports excessive heat, or something gooey on the switch, and pulls the hand back in reflex.
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I think @dbemowsk is hinting at something that fits my understanding of "emergent behavior", individual simple things interact and create more complex results. How many, and whom are different questions. Counters in doorways plus a list of whose phones are at home, maybe add in some hostorical data of who likes to sit in which chair. There are probably better combinations, but that is what I got from hisnrecent comments.
@wallyllama As to your first comment about "emergent behavior", that's pretty much what I was getting at.
As to the MySensors node, my thoughts when I mentioned the "person" node were possibly some kind of MySensorized identifier or tag for a person much like a bluetooth tag. The more I thought about it though, you are correct that there would be all kinds of attributes, and most of them wouldn't need to be tied to the tag. The "person" though might be on the controller side where the processing power is greater and where most of that data would be dealt with anyway.
Vera Plus running UI7 with MySensors, Sonoffs and 1-Wire devices
Visit my website for more Bits, Bytes and Ramblings from me: http://dan.bemowski.info/ -
@wallyllama As to your first comment about "emergent behavior", that's pretty much what I was getting at.
As to the MySensors node, my thoughts when I mentioned the "person" node were possibly some kind of MySensorized identifier or tag for a person much like a bluetooth tag. The more I thought about it though, you are correct that there would be all kinds of attributes, and most of them wouldn't need to be tied to the tag. The "person" though might be on the controller side where the processing power is greater and where most of that data would be dealt with anyway.
@dbemowsk interestingly, as I thought about these ir cameras, they may require a smarter node (maybe something like a nanopi neo2) to preprocess the data, and then a person tag may be useful.
For example 64 pixels, 2 bytes to encode temperature value, 1hz refresh would mean 1280 bytes/s. Which If I have been reading this right, is pretty high for mysensors. There are some ways to reduce that, but it is unkown if an arduino could keep up.
I've mostly been doing research on sensors, and only built one node and a gateway, so alot of what I have been saying about my sensors is assumption.
Does it have a defined method of extending the data types? Or a board that decides? A Glorious Leader we need to cajole? Maybe "user defined" types?
Im kind of in love with these IR array sensors, and I'm probably not objective about what is best for mysensors as a whole, but I have boxes of opinions I'd like to get rid of, so just ask if you want some
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Again, doing some more brain cell searching and reflecting on the subject of a "person" node for MySensors, I am more and more starting to realize that this part of things may not be in the realm of MySensors. Not to say it shouldn't be part of an HA system, just not handled by MySensors. I think it could be a different module/plugin for whatever controller people are using, e.g Vera, Domoticz, OpenHAB, etc... As was mentioned, a "person" node would probably have a great number of properties and attributes that define a person. That in itself I think is a great argument as to why it should NOT be a MySensors node. Some of those properties and attributes may be defined by one or more different MySensors nodes, but it may also take data from a different kind of node based on something like what @wallyllama mentions which might require a more complex processor such as a nanopi. The ways in which a person may be identified could differ greatly between systems and could range from simple to complex. Again I get back to the simple IR doorway occupancy sensor that can count the number of people in a room. I think that this could be a great starting point for something like this and could be something simple enough for MySensors to handle. Going with something like this and later finding varying ways to determine who the occupants of a space are may be a way to get this started.
Vera Plus running UI7 with MySensors, Sonoffs and 1-Wire devices
Visit my website for more Bits, Bytes and Ramblings from me: http://dan.bemowski.info/ -
Again, doing some more brain cell searching and reflecting on the subject of a "person" node for MySensors, I am more and more starting to realize that this part of things may not be in the realm of MySensors. Not to say it shouldn't be part of an HA system, just not handled by MySensors. I think it could be a different module/plugin for whatever controller people are using, e.g Vera, Domoticz, OpenHAB, etc... As was mentioned, a "person" node would probably have a great number of properties and attributes that define a person. That in itself I think is a great argument as to why it should NOT be a MySensors node. Some of those properties and attributes may be defined by one or more different MySensors nodes, but it may also take data from a different kind of node based on something like what @wallyllama mentions which might require a more complex processor such as a nanopi. The ways in which a person may be identified could differ greatly between systems and could range from simple to complex. Again I get back to the simple IR doorway occupancy sensor that can count the number of people in a room. I think that this could be a great starting point for something like this and could be something simple enough for MySensors to handle. Going with something like this and later finding varying ways to determine who the occupants of a space are may be a way to get this started.
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@gohan Openmv has a single board camera with opencv and micropython, another option.
I think @dbemowsk idea of door sensors fits nicely with mysensors as he has said. Is there a more appropriate forum for the more complex devices that anyone knows of? Im thinking if I come up with a node, I can add it like any other, but there will be a lot of talk that ends up a bit off topic.
On topic, are there controllers that are more amenable to the kind of combining of different nodes to identify people that we are talking about? I've used Mr. House for other things, and domoticz for my one test node, not enough to really have an opinion.
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@gohan Openmv has a single board camera with opencv and micropython, another option.
I think @dbemowsk idea of door sensors fits nicely with mysensors as he has said. Is there a more appropriate forum for the more complex devices that anyone knows of? Im thinking if I come up with a node, I can add it like any other, but there will be a lot of talk that ends up a bit off topic.
On topic, are there controllers that are more amenable to the kind of combining of different nodes to identify people that we are talking about? I've used Mr. House for other things, and domoticz for my one test node, not enough to really have an opinion.
@wallyllama I was actually a Mister House user prior to finding MySensors. The death of my Raspberry Pi 2 that I was running Mister House is what got me looking for other options, which is how I found MySensors. I then tried Domoticz for a bit, mainly because I found PERL, which is what MisterHouse is written in, hard to work with. Domoticz had some limitations too. I now have my Vera controller which I like. All of these have deficiencies in certain areas, but the nice thing with all of them is that they support many different types of HA hardware.
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A thought experiment. 5 known people and 1 pet in a room. 1 living being leaves the room. IR door sensor in place. What information do we want about the new situation? And what sensors would we need to gather it?....
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A thought experiment. 5 known people and 1 pet in a room. 1 living being leaves the room. IR door sensor in place. What information do we want about the new situation? And what sensors would we need to gather it?....
@wallyllama Are you talking about all the way down to the system knowing who each of those people are?
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I dont know. I guess Im wondering what you want from this. Do you care about pets vs humans? Adults vs children? General person count only? If the goal is to not shut the lights off on people then the last one is good enough.
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I have recieved 2 amg8832 chips for experimentation after some delays because of import rules. The labeling on the bagggie says they need to be mounted within 108 hours of opening the bag. I would recommend getting a breakout board and not raw chips.
I'll post in the appropriate category any additional progress.
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I have recieved 2 amg8832 chips for experimentation after some delays because of import rules. The labeling on the bagggie says they need to be mounted within 108 hours of opening the bag. I would recommend getting a breakout board and not raw chips.
I'll post in the appropriate category any additional progress.
@wallyllama If I am looking at the information on these, these could see the direction a person is moving correct? If so, that would be a way to count people entering or leaving a room.
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I have recieved 2 amg8832 chips for experimentation after some delays because of import rules. The labeling on the bagggie says they need to be mounted within 108 hours of opening the bag. I would recommend getting a breakout board and not raw chips.
I'll post in the appropriate category any additional progress.
@wallyllama After watching this video this looks even more interesting.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_HA1DX4DQdM
