Anyone cleaning the flux off using an ultrasonic cleaner?
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Those few IC that we dip in flux, is because they have solderballs on the IC from supplier, the remaining components will have solderpaste on each solderpad in PCB.
We don't "remove" flux, we just forward the PCB on conveyor belts into heating oven (REHM reflow solder oven, with Nitrogen gas, to get better solderability as there will be less oxygen interefering during soldering in oven) -
@bjacobse That makes perfect sense, but how are you removing the flux after the SMD manufacturing? Or, are you also heat soaking them after cleaning them?
I've also read about certain conformal coatings being used, especially to slow down or maybe (?) even prevent moisture intrusion after the flux is cleaned off. Advanced Linear Devices appears to use it on their zero threshold voltage mosfet demo boards, which as you can imagine are highly sensitive to leakage currents.
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@NeverDie
We don't use conformal coating. But we use hydrofob coating of the whole device, so w avoid water ingress through the plastic box@bjacobse Excellent! You're the first and only person I've ever met who knows anything about this very important topic.
By "hydrofob", I assume you mean hydrophobic coating? If so, just how effective are they at preventing moisture intrusion, and which type or brand of hydrophobic coating is the best?
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Thank you for the nice compliments, but I'm not an expert, I just know something, and listen to our technicians at work. I work for a hearing aid company, in our PCB manufacturing plant
Yes hydrophobic coating, the machine is quite expensive, so a now retired technican made the machine himself, (He is also a quite bright guy), anyway a similar machine can be bought from Europlasma https://www.europlasma.net/products.html
as I understand the gas (teflon I think is used as gas) is sprayed inside a vacuum chamber, and then the hearing aids with electronics are rotating (Like a slow tumblking washingmachine),
and then after a while not sure but about 20-25min the process is finished. -
Reporting back: Ultrasonic cleaning is back on the table now as a possible option because it turns out there exists "anhydrous" IPA, which, by definition, has no water in it. It costs about the same as regular 99.9% IPA.
Or, if using regular IPA, you can bake the PCB's afterward to drive off any water that may have penetrated. For instance, one of the solder mask vendors recommends doing that as a precaution, because their solder mask sticks best when it is applied to bone dry boards.
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I recently bought an ultrasonic cleaner and i was looking for a cleaner solution and i made some tests heres my experience;
ive tried everything from IPA to acetone with a stiff/soft brush and it just does not deliver that squeaky clean appearance. Then i tried water based pcb cleaner this one (https://termopasty.pl/en/produkty/water-pcb-cleaner)and it is acutally worse than ipa or acetone.
Then i bought an ultrasonic cleaner and started experimenting at 60C heated solution. My setup is just plain tap water to just below max liquid line and then i get a ziplock bag and put my cleaning solution inside around 100-150ml very small amount and then tossing a pcb inside the same bag. then i put the bag inside the ultrasonic cleaner. this way i can get away with very small amount of cleaning solution and save it for later in the same ziplock bag. So far it works i would say as good as a professional looking PCB but there are some caveats. I tried IPA, Acetone, Ethanol and water based PCB cleaner solution(the one i linked above) all in separate occasions to test them individually.
1- IPA(%99) and Ethanol(%90) works equally well final product is squeaky clean after 3 mins. which i could not get the same result with just a brush. its not even close, im not sure if it is the ultrasonic action or 60C heat but theres a day and night difference between brushing and ultrasonic method.
2-%100 Acetone, this one was an experience :) at 60C ziplock bag started to expand because acetone started to boil. this boiling action did not happen with IPA or ethanol. Final result was again squeaky clean and it did not melt anything it didnt even remove silk screen. my pcb has 0603 parts qfns and tqfp packages. didnt have plastic switches or connectors unless im out of IPA or Ethanol i would not use acetone not because its harmful for the pcb but it is scary to work with. I will probably gonna make one more try with room temp water and see the result of cleaning. Because that boiling and expansion was scary.
3-Water based PCB cleaner made a huge gummy mess it made it worse than before so i dont know i was so disappointed because its the most safe solution to work with but NO! simple as that.
4-Soapy water with purified water again it did not make any effect even after 6 mins it was the same.So bottom line in my experience IPA or Ethanol is the way to go. i only wonder if heat is the key thing here or the combination of ultrasonic +ipa. for that my next try will be the same setup but without heat to identify which has the key role in this awesome result.
this image was taken after 5 minutes brush with IPA+acetone:
And this is the same board after only 3 minutes in ultrasonic cleaner in IPA:
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I recently bought an ultrasonic cleaner and i was looking for a cleaner solution and i made some tests heres my experience;
ive tried everything from IPA to acetone with a stiff/soft brush and it just does not deliver that squeaky clean appearance. Then i tried water based pcb cleaner this one (https://termopasty.pl/en/produkty/water-pcb-cleaner)and it is acutally worse than ipa or acetone.
Then i bought an ultrasonic cleaner and started experimenting at 60C heated solution. My setup is just plain tap water to just below max liquid line and then i get a ziplock bag and put my cleaning solution inside around 100-150ml very small amount and then tossing a pcb inside the same bag. then i put the bag inside the ultrasonic cleaner. this way i can get away with very small amount of cleaning solution and save it for later in the same ziplock bag. So far it works i would say as good as a professional looking PCB but there are some caveats. I tried IPA, Acetone, Ethanol and water based PCB cleaner solution(the one i linked above) all in separate occasions to test them individually.
1- IPA(%99) and Ethanol(%90) works equally well final product is squeaky clean after 3 mins. which i could not get the same result with just a brush. its not even close, im not sure if it is the ultrasonic action or 60C heat but theres a day and night difference between brushing and ultrasonic method.
2-%100 Acetone, this one was an experience :) at 60C ziplock bag started to expand because acetone started to boil. this boiling action did not happen with IPA or ethanol. Final result was again squeaky clean and it did not melt anything it didnt even remove silk screen. my pcb has 0603 parts qfns and tqfp packages. didnt have plastic switches or connectors unless im out of IPA or Ethanol i would not use acetone not because its harmful for the pcb but it is scary to work with. I will probably gonna make one more try with room temp water and see the result of cleaning. Because that boiling and expansion was scary.
3-Water based PCB cleaner made a huge gummy mess it made it worse than before so i dont know i was so disappointed because its the most safe solution to work with but NO! simple as that.
4-Soapy water with purified water again it did not make any effect even after 6 mins it was the same.So bottom line in my experience IPA or Ethanol is the way to go. i only wonder if heat is the key thing here or the combination of ultrasonic +ipa. for that my next try will be the same setup but without heat to identify which has the key role in this awesome result.
this image was taken after 5 minutes brush with IPA+acetone:
And this is the same board after only 3 minutes in ultrasonic cleaner in IPA:
@orhanyor Thanks for your post! Which flux is it that you're trying to remove? If you're wanting to use water as the cleaner, then maybe switch to a water soluble flux?
I'm surprised the acetone didn't eat right through your ziplock bag. Looking into it just now though I see that it is possible to purchase polypropylene ziplock bags, which presumably would withstand acetone. Well, the bag material would. Not sure whether the ziplock seal is PP also or not. Is that the kind that you're using?
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I recently bought an ultrasonic cleaner and i was looking for a cleaner solution and i made some tests heres my experience;
ive tried everything from IPA to acetone with a stiff/soft brush and it just does not deliver that squeaky clean appearance. Then i tried water based pcb cleaner this one (https://termopasty.pl/en/produkty/water-pcb-cleaner)and it is acutally worse than ipa or acetone.
Then i bought an ultrasonic cleaner and started experimenting at 60C heated solution. My setup is just plain tap water to just below max liquid line and then i get a ziplock bag and put my cleaning solution inside around 100-150ml very small amount and then tossing a pcb inside the same bag. then i put the bag inside the ultrasonic cleaner. this way i can get away with very small amount of cleaning solution and save it for later in the same ziplock bag. So far it works i would say as good as a professional looking PCB but there are some caveats. I tried IPA, Acetone, Ethanol and water based PCB cleaner solution(the one i linked above) all in separate occasions to test them individually.
1- IPA(%99) and Ethanol(%90) works equally well final product is squeaky clean after 3 mins. which i could not get the same result with just a brush. its not even close, im not sure if it is the ultrasonic action or 60C heat but theres a day and night difference between brushing and ultrasonic method.
2-%100 Acetone, this one was an experience :) at 60C ziplock bag started to expand because acetone started to boil. this boiling action did not happen with IPA or ethanol. Final result was again squeaky clean and it did not melt anything it didnt even remove silk screen. my pcb has 0603 parts qfns and tqfp packages. didnt have plastic switches or connectors unless im out of IPA or Ethanol i would not use acetone not because its harmful for the pcb but it is scary to work with. I will probably gonna make one more try with room temp water and see the result of cleaning. Because that boiling and expansion was scary.
3-Water based PCB cleaner made a huge gummy mess it made it worse than before so i dont know i was so disappointed because its the most safe solution to work with but NO! simple as that.
4-Soapy water with purified water again it did not make any effect even after 6 mins it was the same.So bottom line in my experience IPA or Ethanol is the way to go. i only wonder if heat is the key thing here or the combination of ultrasonic +ipa. for that my next try will be the same setup but without heat to identify which has the key role in this awesome result.
this image was taken after 5 minutes brush with IPA+acetone:
And this is the same board after only 3 minutes in ultrasonic cleaner in IPA:
@orhanyor interesting thank you.
Have you try to put your board on a hotplate at 60°C and brush with ethanol or IPA ?While typing this it made me want to drink a locally made IPA, not sure if it would clean PCBs, I might try :D
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@NeverDie said in Anyone cleaning the flux off using an ultrasonic cleaner?:
By the way, how did 60C become the goldilocks number?
No idea, just suggested to try at the same temperature than the ultrasonic cleaner.
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@orhanyor Thanks for your post! Which flux is it that you're trying to remove? If you're wanting to use water as the cleaner, then maybe switch to a water soluble flux?
I'm surprised the acetone didn't eat right through your ziplock bag. Looking into it just now though I see that it is possible to purchase polypropylene ziplock bags, which presumably would withstand acetone. Well, the bag material would. Not sure whether the ziplock seal is PP also or not. Is that the kind that you're using?
@NeverDie the one in the picture is actually just mechanic solder paste. the reason it looks so messy is when it dries up i mix up some extra flux to the solder paste container to make it shiny and spreadable and result looks horrible after the reflow otherwise when its fresh and new it looks awesome and i believe you can get away without any cleaning. as an extra flux im using nc559 asm but i think its not genuine but works really nice for rework.
the bag im using is this one https://www.ikea.com/ca/en/p/istad-resealable-bag-red-20339284/ no damage at all but i decided to dump the used IPA or Ethanol to a small PP bottle(they are very common) using a funnel to minimize the evaporation. so far my 150ml ethanol looks dirty but so far i used it 10 times and cleans awesome.
And for the record i did that test i mean i didnt use any heating and result was the same so i believe its not the heat but the ultrasonic action combining with the IPA or ethanol is the magic.
Like i said acetone is just too dangerous for us to work with. when i was dealing with acetone i had to take everything outside because i dont have a good ventilation inside and if you inhale even for a second your body tells you hey you need to know its dangerous :) wheras IPA or Ethanol is so easy to work with.edit: ikea says they are made of Polyethylene
@Nca78 i dont have a hot plate otherwise i would have tried it. i have soft and stiff bristle antistatic brushes i tried everything to make them look nice and clean but somehow it doesnt work, i was really frustrated. may be for bigger IC packages brusing with ipa might work but for smaller ICs like 0.50mm pin pitch brushing does absolutely nothing. I believe the gaps where needs to be cleaned are too small for a brush to do its job.
%90 ethanol is cheap can be bought from pharmacy :) ipa depends on the supplier it is cheap too but im absolutely %100 satisfied with the result. probably its a good idea to give them one final wash with a deionised water to remove any residue left from the dirty IPA or ethanol. let the boards sit for couple of days or bake them in the oven at 80-90C for half an hour and its done.
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@NeverDie the one in the picture is actually just mechanic solder paste. the reason it looks so messy is when it dries up i mix up some extra flux to the solder paste container to make it shiny and spreadable and result looks horrible after the reflow otherwise when its fresh and new it looks awesome and i believe you can get away without any cleaning. as an extra flux im using nc559 asm but i think its not genuine but works really nice for rework.
the bag im using is this one https://www.ikea.com/ca/en/p/istad-resealable-bag-red-20339284/ no damage at all but i decided to dump the used IPA or Ethanol to a small PP bottle(they are very common) using a funnel to minimize the evaporation. so far my 150ml ethanol looks dirty but so far i used it 10 times and cleans awesome.
And for the record i did that test i mean i didnt use any heating and result was the same so i believe its not the heat but the ultrasonic action combining with the IPA or ethanol is the magic.
Like i said acetone is just too dangerous for us to work with. when i was dealing with acetone i had to take everything outside because i dont have a good ventilation inside and if you inhale even for a second your body tells you hey you need to know its dangerous :) wheras IPA or Ethanol is so easy to work with.edit: ikea says they are made of Polyethylene
@Nca78 i dont have a hot plate otherwise i would have tried it. i have soft and stiff bristle antistatic brushes i tried everything to make them look nice and clean but somehow it doesnt work, i was really frustrated. may be for bigger IC packages brusing with ipa might work but for smaller ICs like 0.50mm pin pitch brushing does absolutely nothing. I believe the gaps where needs to be cleaned are too small for a brush to do its job.
%90 ethanol is cheap can be bought from pharmacy :) ipa depends on the supplier it is cheap too but im absolutely %100 satisfied with the result. probably its a good idea to give them one final wash with a deionised water to remove any residue left from the dirty IPA or ethanol. let the boards sit for couple of days or bake them in the oven at 80-90C for half an hour and its done.
@orhanyor The 90% ethanol you buy at the pharmacy is denatured or non-denatured?
I have no direct experience with it, but from what I've read ethanol can leave behind an oily residue when it evaporates, as compared to IPA, which allegedly does not (or maybe it just has less of a residue?). I don't know what oily residue it would be though, and I would think that a wash of acetone afterward would wash away oily residues if they were to occur.
In the US denatured alcohol is very cheap (approximately $7/gallon at Walmart) and is typically labelled as "fuel" on the cans. I think maybe one reason it's not used on PCB's is that there are many ways to make it, so it's hard to know exactly what any particular denatured alcohol is, or what the proper PPE would be for handling it, without a datasheet to go with it. Depending on its composition, there might also be a risk of it leaving behind toxic residues, but maybe there are some that don't? If one could do the main cleaning with denatured, since it's so cheap, and then a rinse afterward with IPA or acetone or something, maybe it would be a win. Or, maybe not, since I only rarely read of anyone using denatured alcohol to clean PCB's, and surely I'm not the first to wonder about it.
That said, methylated spirits are supposedly 95% ethanol and 5% methanol. That would make it perhaps the simplest denatured alcohols, but also with a high ethanol content. If both components were guaranteed to evaporate, then presumably there would be no lingering residues to worry about--at least not from the denatured alcohol itself. In which case it might be as simple as not touching or breathing the methanol component by using the appropriate PPE and ventilation. Not sure, but maybe? CDC has what looks like a fairly comprehensive MSDS for methanol: https://www.cdc.gov/niosh/ershdb/emergencyresponsecard_29750029.html
I just this week ordered a gallon of anhydrous IPA, so I'll be well stocked for a while. It's not cheap though, and your sandwich bag method seems like a good way to reduce the amounts needed to a minimum per use in an ultrasonic cleaner. It might even consume less IPA than what I would normally use to clean/rinse a board without an ultrasonic cleaner! So, I guess I'll be shopping for an ultrasonic cleaner sometime soon, and so I'm glad you did the experiment which showed that heating made no difference.
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@NeverDie the ethanol i bought from the pharmacy was very cheap 150ml bottle on the label it says it is for disinfection the skin like before penetration of needle etc its for medical use but what matters is its %90 the rest is clean water it says on the label.
theres absolutely no oily or stick residue otherwise i wouldnt have used it. I did like 10 boards 2-3 with IPA, ethanol, acetone and water based solution while testing.
I watched quite abit of videos in youtube most of the people dunk the pcb in clean deionised water as a final wash to eliminate any left residue. Unfortunately i dont have it but i will buy some soon and i will do the same but for now no residue at all.
wow! denatured alcohol is so cheap over there. i would have definitely tried it :) i mean if it works it works.. just need to test it with some scrap pcb but on the other hand you are right about the handling it. it might be toxic especially if theres methyl alcohol in it but the one i got supposed to be used on human skin so i believe its completely safe. Safest bet is probably IPA and with the plastic bag method you really minimize the evaporation and amount used so it should last for quite some time. its just good practice to put it back into its bottle(different one ofc). today i noticed a small leak in my plastic bag so its not a good place to store the IPA. -
I'm planning to use this:
https://smile.amazon.com/Chapin-10027-48-Ounce-Industrial-Acetone/dp/B00C4NQSQ6/ref=cm_cr_arp_d_product_top?ie=UTF8
or this:
https://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/B07ZZGWJ61/ref=ox_sc_saved_title_1?smid=ACTB8CBED46SR&psc=1
for rising with acetoneI plan on using this:
https://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/B08B3C2PM3/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o01_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1
or this:
https://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/B005Z4RGQW/ref=ox_sc_saved_title_2?smid=A29JIFH4ZXPNL8&psc=1
for rinsing with IPA.I'm sharing the info because it's not always easy to find spray bottles with the right kind of chemical resistance. From what I've read, the usual advice for mechanical sprayers is to empty the container immediately after use because even with Viton seals and gaskets, very often "resistant" does not equate to "unaffected." For instance, LDPE ziplock bags may be able to withstand acetone for a while, but eventually the acetone will break through.
Likewise, I used to think that nitrile gloves were fairly resistant to most chemicals, but then I noticed that acetone passed through them quite quickly. Likewise, nitrile gloves would be a poor choice for handling methyl alcohol. According to this handy chart, the best type of glove for both acetone and methyl alcohol (as well as IPA) are butyl gloves: https://www.augusta.edu/services/ehs/chemsafe/PDF files/gloveselechart.pdf
As it happens, I picked up a pair just recently as PPE for use with, before, or after an ultrasonic PCB cleaning. However, last week I visited one of the big box hardware stores and their entire inventory of chemical resistant gloves was wiped out, so be sure to plan ahead.
