2 channel in wall dimmer

[sundberg84]

@Denke Can you share your files for this design?
It would be awesome and this looks great!

[Denke]

Hi all
I will try to answer your questions.

Q: what sort of switch would be on the wall?
For this design i would recommend that you use 230 V rated switch to control the dimmer. The output is still only 0V that you switch on and off. But the design is made in such a way that if you get short circuit on the capacitor in series in to the rectifier there can be 230 V on the input pins ( very unlikely because of other things will burn) but it can happen.

Q: How are you sure that this hardware circuit …….
Doing a little benchmark and understand how dimmers and switches from NEXA or similar are working. Actually I ripped them apart and found out that they were using transformer less designs. From that I Googled this and read up on the topic as well as discussed this with colleges of mine. I then changed some parts as the transformerless design would in simulation not give more than 10mA so I added the MAX 17552 circuit in between and set the input voltage to 24 V with the zener diode and by that I will be able to draw about 30 mA (starting current of the circuit that I tested is around 24 mA).
Q: I suspect this unit is going to be mounted in wall behind……..
Yes of course but just use it as the switch, what I mean is that don’t use at ordinary switch were 230 V is applied. The circuit is designed to just feel a logic zero on one of the inputs. ( just make sure that you read my first reply above for safety reasons)
Q: can we control Celling fan using this dimmer.
Should not be a problem as I have used Triacs that are made for inductive load (not tested though). But the fan should not consume more than 4A. I also have not tested from a heat perspective how much power I can have running in the system. It might be less than the 2 channels times 4A.

[Denke]

I have not descided yet if this is something i will sell or not so before i take that descision i will not share the actual design files but I will be happy to answer questions around the design and the considerations i have taken.

I might post a question later on if someone wants to join on first ordering for the prototypes/functional version, as this is the first step, primaraly to equip my house with these gadgets. In such a case i will offer those dimmers for a very low cost

[hek]

So, what is the problem of sharing design as open hardware and at the same time sell your boards assembled?

[Denke]

@hek Its more that i at this moment have not gone through the pros and cons of open hardware. And this is something i will read up on. So Im not saying that i will not share, but i need my time to go through it.

[ahmedadelhosni]

Thanks for answering.

I have a question regarding dimmer circuit. I read that these circuits needs EMI filter. Is this something else rather than adding a snubber circuit ?

This issue I found in this link : http://hackaday.com/2015/04/19/switch-mains-power-with-an-esp8266/

the TRIAC will dump out a ton of EMI (that’s why most commercial dimmers have to have a choke in series with the load to be able to get FCC certification).

[Denke]

@ahmedadelhosni
Hi This circuit is not tested yet and can as you describe put out some or as stated a lot of EMI (Electro Magnetic Interference). I have not yet taken this in to account when designing this but have had it in the back of my head for something to look in to.

The snubber circuit is more to protect agains "current rush" when you switch of an inductive load. This is actually something you use on the 5 volt side of relays to protect the transistor from breaking down. Andyou should also use on the output side of a relay for example if the cable you are runnigng is long or you want to switch of an inductive load

[ahmedadelhosni]

@Denke clear enough. Thanks

[ahmedadelhosni]

Hello @Denke , any updates about your progress ?

[Ivan Z]

This will make your box less
https://ac-dc.power.com/products/linkswitch-family/linkswitch-tn/

[Denke]

@Ivan-Z Thanks I will look in to this design and what it means to the design

[Denke]

@ahmedadelhosni Going slowly at the moment had to do a respin on my thermostat project as i have made some small errors. Some of the design is the same so i will verify some things on the other design. Also waiting for chinese new years to end

[ahmedadelhosni]

@Denke Yeah the holiday takes a long period there :)

Actually yesterday I read a lot about AC-DC converters and really learned new things, but I may need your help in clarifying some points please. I watched this video which guided me to this type of circuit design. Modlet Smart-Outlet Teardown and Review - (IT'S A POS)

Be aware that by this type of design with the transformer less design considerations needs to be taken when connecting computers and other stuff.

1- What I learned yesterday is that a "transformless" design is not safe ( don't know to what level of safety though ), but I read that there is no isolation between Main inputs and low voltage.
My questions:

• Is this normal ? Would that affect the Atmega and other components ?
• How to avoid this ?

2- The above video mentioned that the Modlet outlet uses LNK304DN Datasheetwith outputs 12V. The below picture is from the datasheet and that reference was even used in the Modlet outlet as mentioned in the video.

My question:

• There are different designs in the datasheet but I can't diffrentiate between them and what is the best to use, but in all cases, this design still lacks the safety procedures, correct ? Like there is no MOV, Fuse .. ? It is just the circuit to produce a 12V 120mA which shall be stable and not noisy. Correct ?

3-

The AC is on the left hand side. the 0.33 uF capacitor in series on the 240 sets the maximum current, which should be around 10 mA on the AC side

I then changed some parts as the transformerless design would in simulation not give more than 10mA so I added the MAX 17552 circuit in between and set the input voltage to 24 V with the zener diode and by that I will be able to draw about 30 mA (starting current of the circuit that I tested is around 24 mA).
Can you explain what the 0.33 uF does to set the maximun current ?

• What is the maximum current and how was it calculated ?
• How can I increase the output current to 100mA 5v/3.3v ?

• Actually the schematic is not clear at all when I download the pictuers. Maybe resolution :)

Thanks a lot for your support.

[m26872]

@Denke Very nice project! Hope to see a working protype soon. Any thoughts about making a relay switch based on this design. Will there be space and power for a 10A relay?

[Denke]

@m26872 I guess there will be space for 1 or 2 relays. But it will be crowded, but nothing is impossible

[tante ju]

@ahmedadelhosni said:

My questions:

• Is this normal ? Would that affect the Atmega and other components ?
• How to avoid this ?

This is a matter of reference. When you have a power source with no contact to any othe rreference you are safe to touche one contact of that power source. If you make contact to the other one, you would be a resistor to the power source and act as esistor, having current runningthrough your body with all the negative impacts, including chance of death.

As explained, that is a matter of the reference. When you use a transformator, where secondary is not connected to anything else, you could safely make contact. In case you use any transfromless design, everything is somehow connected to mains. You are connected to grounds, so touching anything would be dangerous. As long as you do not touch anything, you are safe.
In fact a lot of electronics is tranformless with enough and safe insulation around it, so that no contact to grounds is possible. It is not only affecting persnal health, but could also be a source of fire if there could leak any current to grounds or mains from that circuitry. That's the reaosn for the insulation.

In fact this applies to transformators as well, as the primay side has contact to grounds.

So, it does not affect any Atmel or so, it just raises the level of security precautions you have to take care of for this type of circuitry.

[ahmedadelhosni]

@tante-ju
Thanks for great clarification.
So does this only happens when the device is pluged in the wall ? In other words, there are a bunch of capacitors and passive components in the low side which has rederence to main inputs ( that's what i understood ) so touching is damgerous while plugged. But if i unplugged the device, will it still contain charges which can kill me ?
Suppose this is a wall plug and I have both terminals of the plug free to be touch ofcourse. So will the charges disappate through the terminals and then to my body ?

[scalz]

@ahmedadelhosni : I agree too. yes mostly inwall. and yes there still can be some capa charged.
for the difference in the schematic. Generally you can use the standard schematic in datasheet for simple things even if you have to add few components. But for things like transformerless, which is more tricky for instance, it is not sufficient. you have to add components around. I don't remember right as I have already looked at this (and have a bunch of lnk306 and tny in stock), there are more complete schematics in appnotes or in the datasheet. But footprint increase to have something more secure or more optimized (the reason why I choosed hilink finally, but in some case transformerless makes sense and insulating is mandatory!). There are online tools at powerintegrations, to calculate what is possible to do regarding value of component.

[Denke]

Thanks Tante-ju and Scalz for helping out with the answer. This is why i stated that you need to treat the equipment as hot, becouse that you don't have control of the reference to ground. But as long as it stays "inwall" and you are using 230 V rated switches on the low voltage switch then the insulations shall be ok and safe. But as soon as you open up and work with it you need to treat is as hot.

[ahmedadelhosni]

Thank you all. I still want to know whether there will be charges also when I unplug it or not ?
I am giving the example of a wall plug because it can be plugged and unplungged several times and the terminals can be touched.