nRF5 action!
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Lastly, I'm quite intrigued by this one, which is an nRF51832, because it is only 11.4mmx9.5mm in size:
https://www.aliexpress.com/store/product/PTR5528-Fingertip-size-nRF51822-Module-Ultra-Low-Power-Bluetooth-4-0-Low-Energy-RF-Module-Free/130096_1705429590.html?spm=2114.12010108.0.0.TRBTKqHas anyone seen anything else which is that small or even smaller?
@NeverDie said in Minimalist SAMD21 TQFP32 Pro Mini:
Has anyone seen anything else which is that small or even smaller?
Yes. 9x9mm with antenna: https://de.aliexpress.com/store/product/PTR5628-Nordic-nRF52832-Module-BLE-4-0-Module-Free-shipping/130096_32760971926.html but photo and product description are different. I had a discussion with the manufacterer end of 2016 at this time the module was shown as 9*9mm module. The PTR5628 has no 32kHz oscillator, you have to use the unprecise RC oscillator.
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@NeverDie said in Minimalist SAMD21 TQFP32 Pro Mini:
Has anyone seen anything else which is that small or even smaller?
Yes. 9x9mm with antenna: https://de.aliexpress.com/store/product/PTR5628-Nordic-nRF52832-Module-BLE-4-0-Module-Free-shipping/130096_32760971926.html but photo and product description are different. I had a discussion with the manufacterer end of 2016 at this time the module was shown as 9*9mm module. The PTR5628 has no 32kHz oscillator, you have to use the unprecise RC oscillator.
@d00616
9mmx9mm would be great. However, are you certain? Product description says 15.4mmx15.4mm.Pitty the lack of 32khz crystal, but for a lot of sensor nodes perhaps it won't matter much.
I did find this after making my prior post:
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/nRF51-M0-Ultra-small-Bluetooth-BLE-Module-4-0-Module-LIS3DH-Support-10-GPIOs/32697055436.html?spm=a2g0s.13010208.99999999.295.t9NHvJ
which is allegedly 8.5mmx10.5mm and allegedly does have a 32Khz crystal, but the trade-off is that it's an nRF51832, not an nRF52832. -
@NeverDie said in Minimalist SAMD21 TQFP32 Pro Mini:
hanks! I had been using a computer running Windows 7, and I got no joy with Zadig and st-link v2 on that. However, you just now mentioned Windows 10, so I'll give that a try.
I think the best option for beginners is to use an CMSIS-DAP/DAPLink adapter. Firmware and drivers are open source and there is an integrated serial port.
The ST-Link adapter is initialized with an ST-Link driver by libwdi. If you have luck you can find an old variant.
@d00616 said in Minimalist SAMD21 TQFP32 Pro Mini:
I think the best option for beginners is to use an CMSIS-DAP/DAPLink adapter.
Thanks for the tip! Based on your recommendation, I ordered this:
http://www.adafruit.com/product/2764
because I could expedite the shipping.Hopefully it works.
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@NeverDie said in Minimalist SAMD21 TQFP32 Pro Mini:
hanks! I had been using a computer running Windows 7, and I got no joy with Zadig and st-link v2 on that. However, you just now mentioned Windows 10, so I'll give that a try.
I think the best option for beginners is to use an CMSIS-DAP/DAPLink adapter. Firmware and drivers are open source and there is an integrated serial port.
The ST-Link adapter is initialized with an ST-Link driver by libwdi. If you have luck you can find an old variant.
@d00616
The smallest size I found was this:
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/Bluetooth-UART-Wireless-Data-Transceiver-DA14580-Module-for-Arduino/32666222427.html?spm=a2g0s.13010208.99999999.284.fiUAYv
It's just 5mmx6.2mm! So, at least the size is very much awesome. It does have an M0 Cortex core, but it's not a Nordic Semi chip: http://www.dialog-semiconductor.com/sites/default/files/da14580_ds_3v4.pdf
so I have no idea if, or to what degree, it can be easily programmed from within the familiar Arduino IDE the way the Nordic chips apparently can. Do you happen to know if it would be trivially easy? Or would getting it to work be a project unto itself? -
@gohan said in Minimalist SAMD21 TQFP32 Pro Mini:
what would you use those connectors for?
Once outfitted with the connectors, the modules should then fit quite easily into these for prototyping:
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/6-X-8CM-spacing-1-27-universal-board-thickness-1-6mm-sided-HASL-PCB-test-board/32774106087.html?spm=a2g0s.13010208.99999999.288.lLgJVvNot sure if there exist 1.27mm pitch breadboards, but I haven't found any on Aliexpress.
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@d00616
The smallest size I found was this:
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/Bluetooth-UART-Wireless-Data-Transceiver-DA14580-Module-for-Arduino/32666222427.html?spm=a2g0s.13010208.99999999.284.fiUAYv
It's just 5mmx6.2mm! So, at least the size is very much awesome. It does have an M0 Cortex core, but it's not a Nordic Semi chip: http://www.dialog-semiconductor.com/sites/default/files/da14580_ds_3v4.pdf
so I have no idea if, or to what degree, it can be easily programmed from within the familiar Arduino IDE the way the Nordic chips apparently can. Do you happen to know if it would be trivially easy? Or would getting it to work be a project unto itself?@NeverDie said in Minimalist SAMD21 TQFP32 Pro Mini:
It's just 5mmx6.2mm! So, at least the size is very much awesome. It does have an M0 Cortex core, but it's not a Nordic Semi chip: http://www.dialog-semiconductor.com/sites/default/files/da14580_ds_3v4.pdf
so I have no idea if, or to what degree, it can be easily programmed from within the familiar Arduino IDE the way the Nordic chips apparently can. Do you happen to know if it would be trivially easy? Or would getting it to work be a project unto itself?Didn't check in detail but Nordic uses "soft devices", and that's what is compatible with the Arduino platform. That's also why it can work on both NRF51 and NRF52.
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@NeverDie said in Minimalist SAMD21 TQFP32 Pro Mini:
It's just 5mmx6.2mm! So, at least the size is very much awesome. It does have an M0 Cortex core, but it's not a Nordic Semi chip: http://www.dialog-semiconductor.com/sites/default/files/da14580_ds_3v4.pdf
so I have no idea if, or to what degree, it can be easily programmed from within the familiar Arduino IDE the way the Nordic chips apparently can. Do you happen to know if it would be trivially easy? Or would getting it to work be a project unto itself?Didn't check in detail but Nordic uses "soft devices", and that's what is compatible with the Arduino platform. That's also why it can work on both NRF51 and NRF52.
Unfortunately, I don't think the da14580 will work with the current mysensors library: it appears to be bluetooth only. I only did a quick speed read of its datasheet, but I didn't see any mention of the Nordic proprietary modes (or anything like them) that the mysensors library relies on.
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I have ordered one like this. It's pretty small already, less than 2*1cm :
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/nRF51822-04-BLE4-0-WIFI-Wireless-Bluetooth-Module-TTL-Low-Power-Consumption/32682158906.htmlIt has very limited I/O and is made to be used in addition to a MCU using UART to communicate, but the SWDIO and SWDCLK pins are broken out so I will see if I can reprogram it.
It has a datasheet to at least get a valid footprint (as I don't plan to use the serial protocol) :
https://4tronix.co.uk/picobot2/WT51822-S4AT.pdfAnd it has been featured on Nordic's website where they say it's supposed to have FCC certification (and CE too, but that's just declarative...).
http://www.nordicsemi.com/node_206/node_305/Product-Related-News/Nordic-powered-Bluetooth-Smart-module-simplifies-development-of-wireless-wearables-toys-and-smart-home-solutionsThey also claim a 50m range which is way better than the 10m of the da14580 you link above.
So if it can be reprogrammed without problem it looks like a perfect candidate for basic nodes like door, I2C etc
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I have ordered one like this. It's pretty small already, less than 2*1cm :
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/nRF51822-04-BLE4-0-WIFI-Wireless-Bluetooth-Module-TTL-Low-Power-Consumption/32682158906.htmlIt has very limited I/O and is made to be used in addition to a MCU using UART to communicate, but the SWDIO and SWDCLK pins are broken out so I will see if I can reprogram it.
It has a datasheet to at least get a valid footprint (as I don't plan to use the serial protocol) :
https://4tronix.co.uk/picobot2/WT51822-S4AT.pdfAnd it has been featured on Nordic's website where they say it's supposed to have FCC certification (and CE too, but that's just declarative...).
http://www.nordicsemi.com/node_206/node_305/Product-Related-News/Nordic-powered-Bluetooth-Smart-module-simplifies-development-of-wireless-wearables-toys-and-smart-home-solutionsThey also claim a 50m range which is way better than the 10m of the da14580 you link above.
So if it can be reprogrammed without problem it looks like a perfect candidate for basic nodes like door, I2C etc
Both the price and size are certainly nice. I think d00616 would probably point out that it lacks a 32Khz crystal, but since I lack experience with the nRF5's, I don't know how significant that is or isn't. Anyone know?
BTW, it would also be nice to know whether or not the OTA sketch upload capability will work on an nRF51, or only an nRF52 (and also whether it will work on an nRF52832 or only the future nRF52840). Anyone know?
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Both the price and size are certainly nice. I think d00616 would probably point out that it lacks a 32Khz crystal, but since I lack experience with the nRF5's, I don't know how significant that is or isn't. Anyone know?
BTW, it would also be nice to know whether or not the OTA sketch upload capability will work on an nRF51, or only an nRF52 (and also whether it will work on an nRF52832 or only the future nRF52840). Anyone know?
@NeverDie said in Minimalist SAMD21 TQFP32 Pro Mini:
Both the price and size are certainly nice. I think d00616 would probably point out that it lacks a 32Khz crystal, but since I lack experience with the nRF5's, I don't know how significant that is or isn't. Anyone know?
Right, it sucks for low power at it needs recalibration every 4 seconds to stay accurate enough, generating 10uA extra consumption. But I'm not sure if this is needed for bluetooth only (because it has to wake up regularly and listen during a precise time window), or also for "nrf24" mode because in that mode we don't need to be precise or regular listenin.
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@NeverDie said in Minimalist SAMD21 TQFP32 Pro Mini:
Both the price and size are certainly nice. I think d00616 would probably point out that it lacks a 32Khz crystal, but since I lack experience with the nRF5's, I don't know how significant that is or isn't. Anyone know?
Right, it sucks for low power at it needs recalibration every 4 seconds to stay accurate enough, generating 10uA extra consumption. But I'm not sure if this is needed for bluetooth only (because it has to wake up regularly and listen during a precise time window), or also for "nrf24" mode because in that mode we don't need to be precise or regular listenin.
@NeverDie said in Minimalist SAMD21 TQFP32 Pro Mini:
BTW, it would also be nice to know whether or not the OTA sketch upload capability will work on an nRF51, or only an nRF52 (and also whether it will work on an nRF52832 or only the future nRF52840). Anyone know?
Nordic's DFU bootloader is also working with nRF51 chips. https://devzone.nordicsemi.com/documentation/nrf51/4.4.1/html/group__bootloader__dfu__description.html
At the moment the MySensors implementation is not compatible with a SoftDevice. This requires to change interrupts, use some SoftDevice system calls and move the NVM driver Flash area out of the DFU bootloader area.
I have started a new thread for OTA update discussion: https://forum.mysensors.org/topic/7146/nrf5-ota-updates
@Nca78 said in Minimalist SAMD21 TQFP32 Pro Mini:
Right, it sucks for low power at it needs recalibration every 4 seconds to stay accurate enough, generating 10uA extra consumption. But I'm not sure if this is needed for bluetooth only (because it has to wake up regularly and listen during a precise time window), or also for "nrf24" mode because in that mode we don't need to be precise or regular listenin.
That's correct. If required, the calibration task must be implemented or is part of the SoftDevice. At the moment the radio doesn't require a precise RTC for nRF24 compatibility. For battery powered sensors listening for commands a time slotted protocol is required. Then this protocol relies on a precise RTC.
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I'm leaning more toward the nRF52 platform over the nRF51, in part for its superior range but also because I'm guessing it will be a little easier for the person who is implementing the OTA sketch uploads to implement it first on an nRF52 (more resources, less constrained).
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So, is the speed of the Cortex on an nRF5 already good enough that one can simply emulate an atsha signing component, and thus that part now completely disappears from the BOM?
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So, is the speed of the Cortex on an nRF5 already good enough that one can simply emulate an atsha signing component, and thus that part now completely disappears from the BOM?
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So, is the speed of the Cortex on an nRF5 already good enough that one can simply emulate an atsha signing component, and thus that part now completely disappears from the BOM?
@NeverDie but remember that if you use soft signing it is your own responsibility to protect the hmac key from readout by an attacker with physical access to the device.
Do you feel secure today? No? Start requiring some signatures and feel better tomorrow ;)
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@NeverDie but remember that if you use soft signing it is your own responsibility to protect the hmac key from readout by an attacker with physical access to the device.
@Anticimex said in Minimalist SAMD21 TQFP32 Pro Mini:
@NeverDie but remember that if you use soft signing it is your own responsibility to protect the hmac key from readout by an attacker with physical access to the device.
Thanks! Good to know. Speaking only for myself, I don't think I'll be losing any sleep over the prospect of an attacker gaining physical access to one of my home devices with the intent of extracting the hmac key. I'm more likely to win a lottery than have that happen--and I don't even play lotteries.
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@Anticimex said in Minimalist SAMD21 TQFP32 Pro Mini:
@NeverDie but remember that if you use soft signing it is your own responsibility to protect the hmac key from readout by an attacker with physical access to the device.
Thanks! Good to know. Speaking only for myself, I don't think I'll be losing any sleep over the prospect of an attacker gaining physical access to one of my home devices with the intent of extracting the hmac key. I'm more likely to win a lottery than have that happen--and I don't even play lotteries.
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@NeverDie that is probably correct, I just feel a responsibility to inform everyone of any known weaknesses in the security infrastructure ;)
@Anticimex
I don't mean to trivialize it. For commercial applications, the atsha204a would of course make sense.But, at least for now, it sounds likely that $2.73 will buy you the hardware for a nice little home wireless node, minus sensors and power supply. That's today's price for a NRF51822-04 MINI that NCA78 linked to above. And, of course, that price will continue to drop. Pretty cool!
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Which library is most recommended for exploiting the RTC that's on an nRF52832? Likewise, what's the best library for sleeping the nRF52832? Since I have the DK, I'd like to take some current measurements while running some demo code for that. That will establish a baseline for comparing future measurements.
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I just now ordered this:
https://www.sparkfun.com/products/13746?_ga=2.39569123.1141912816.1499956888-1087552930.1495048698It's like a regular FTDI, but it can also power your project at 3.3v at up to 600ma! :) Previously I had to make my own hacked FTDI interface to do that. Ordinary 3.3v FTDI's will burn out under the load of, say, an ESP8266, or a 20db Tx power amplified nRF24L01.
