Would You Like Support For ESP8266 'Nodes'?
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@yveaux said in Would You Like Support For ESP8266 'Nodes'?:
I don't want to hijack your thread
Nagh, I appreciate all opinions, that what I'm here for.
I agree about the MQTT flexibility, and normally I would be the 1st one to insist on going with an established standard, but MQTT flexibility comes at the expense of bandwidth efficiency. As you pointed out, its for low volume messaging, and when I did some projected bandwidth calculations three years ago, and the numbers scared me off MQTT. Besides that, I think the underlying architecture of MySensors protocol is simply brilliant, its the perfect balance between flexibility and efficiency. As far as I know its been able to handle every requirement that has been asked of it over the years, and while it's been expanded. the basic protocol remains the same.
My power monitoring node currently transmits four channels of two floats (Current Watts and Cumulitive kWHr units) every ten seconds, and I'm about to increase that to eight channels. Add to that reasonably frequent security system status reports from eleven zone sensors, and about eight temperature/humidity/light type sensors and the traffic volume is already getting pretty high. During the night, for health reasons, I want to monitor my pulse, blood pressure and oxygen levels for real time data collection, which I would like to pass through the MySensors network simply because its all automatically logged, the data is automatically backed up etc, otherwise I'd have to duplicate those facilities for the medical data, so it makes sense to me.
While I'm unable to look at the actual RF data, just looking at the serial debug data, I can see there are already missing readings (collisions?)from my power monitor. If I increase it to eight power channels, I believe the RF network will be oversaturated. So I can't even think about the medical data, but an ethernet transport option would solve the current needs and cater for some future growth.
I've been told "the focus of MySensors is on RF and RS-485 communications", whereas I always thought MySensors was about an 'open and practical Home Automation', rather than one particular technology. Over the years I've detected an anti-ethernet / anti ESP sentiment in the forum for some reason. The whole reason I brought up this subject was after reading yet another post where a newbie wanting to use the ESP8266 without an RF device was simply told to go elsewhere. If that's the official view, then I'm concerned for the future of MySensors as I believe the current RF technology isn't able to meet the current user's expectations, much the future needs as the 'connected home' becomes a reality (for more than the technical oriented). All my friends are asking me about home automation, and I think when the latest generation of smart appliances hit the market, home automation will take off.
So, 'having been told', my choice now is do I create my own quick and dirty ethernet node transport, which will mean I will no longer be running a standard MySensors release and 'my version' will most probably fall behind, or do I go back to square one and look for a product / protocol that will cater for the future? It's going to be a difficult choice, and although I think ethernet will 'have to be incorporated' eventually, my needs for more bandwidth mean I have to find a solution now rather that in a year or two.
Regards,
Paul
@affordabletech said in Would You Like Support For ESP8266 'Nodes'?:
Over the years I've detected an anti-ethernet / anti ESP sentiment in the forum for some reason
Sorry if you got that impression. I personally did the MySensors esp8266 port long time ago. Initially as a cheap and simple wifi gateway. Cabled ethernet gateways have been supported from the start. Over the years there has been very little interest in ethernet sensor nodes on the MySensors forum.
Recently the option of local sensors for gateways was added, turning an esp8266 into a sensor gateway. Not exactly what you are looking for, but close IMHO.Then the question of ethernet sensor nodes. Within the MySensors software framework there currently is no ethernet transport layer. This is certainly doable, but the core team lacks resources to implement it. We are more than willing to include it in the stack if someone adds decent support for it and offers to maintain it.
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@gohan
I watched man go to the moon when we hardly had calculators, so I know very well "anything is possible", but what's 'practical' is a very different matter. My objectives are 'results' based and not tied to any particular brand or technology. If my current traffic is causing problems, I have no interest in patching it up or work-around (as I think is obvious). If I'm putting more data into the transport that it can handle, I see only two 'proper' solutions, less data or a bigger pipe. Anything else would be short-sighted in my opinion, I subscribe to the 'do it once, do it right school' of thought, but I understand everybody tackles problems their own way.My confusion was over the future direction of MySensors and I believe that's been answered very clearly. I misunderstood the focus of MySensors to be for open and effective home automation, and that's why I couldn't understand why people keen on the ESP8266 were told to go somewhere else, but now that you have told me the focus is primarily on RF and RS485, I understand and realise my mistake.
While I feel focusing primarily on one particular transport may prove detrimental for the future of MySensors, that's simply my opinion based my inability to appreciate the value of specialising on RF24/69 etc, worth no more or less than any other opinion.
So please understand, I'm not having a go at you, I was confused by the anti ESP8266 sentiment, but that was when I didn't realise I was in an 'RF24 Shop' so to speak. If I was selling RF24 and you came in promoting ESP, I would have told you to go elsewhere, so it was my misunderstanding.
Thanks for taking the time to respond and clarify,
Paul
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Since it is a community driven project, I see it as it has evolved according to the most common needs. I don't think there is any anti ESP8266 sentiment, it is just there hasn't been a strong interest for it for the purpose of the project.
Of course, as @Yveaux said, if there are people willing to help extend the project functionalities they will be more than welcome -
@yveaux said in Would You Like Support For ESP8266 'Nodes'?:
I don't want to hijack your thread
Nagh, I appreciate all opinions, that what I'm here for.
I agree about the MQTT flexibility, and normally I would be the 1st one to insist on going with an established standard, but MQTT flexibility comes at the expense of bandwidth efficiency. As you pointed out, its for low volume messaging, and when I did some projected bandwidth calculations three years ago, and the numbers scared me off MQTT. Besides that, I think the underlying architecture of MySensors protocol is simply brilliant, its the perfect balance between flexibility and efficiency. As far as I know its been able to handle every requirement that has been asked of it over the years, and while it's been expanded. the basic protocol remains the same.
My power monitoring node currently transmits four channels of two floats (Current Watts and Cumulitive kWHr units) every ten seconds, and I'm about to increase that to eight channels. Add to that reasonably frequent security system status reports from eleven zone sensors, and about eight temperature/humidity/light type sensors and the traffic volume is already getting pretty high. During the night, for health reasons, I want to monitor my pulse, blood pressure and oxygen levels for real time data collection, which I would like to pass through the MySensors network simply because its all automatically logged, the data is automatically backed up etc, otherwise I'd have to duplicate those facilities for the medical data, so it makes sense to me.
While I'm unable to look at the actual RF data, just looking at the serial debug data, I can see there are already missing readings (collisions?)from my power monitor. If I increase it to eight power channels, I believe the RF network will be oversaturated. So I can't even think about the medical data, but an ethernet transport option would solve the current needs and cater for some future growth.
I've been told "the focus of MySensors is on RF and RS-485 communications", whereas I always thought MySensors was about an 'open and practical Home Automation', rather than one particular technology. Over the years I've detected an anti-ethernet / anti ESP sentiment in the forum for some reason. The whole reason I brought up this subject was after reading yet another post where a newbie wanting to use the ESP8266 without an RF device was simply told to go elsewhere. If that's the official view, then I'm concerned for the future of MySensors as I believe the current RF technology isn't able to meet the current user's expectations, much the future needs as the 'connected home' becomes a reality (for more than the technical oriented). All my friends are asking me about home automation, and I think when the latest generation of smart appliances hit the market, home automation will take off.
So, 'having been told', my choice now is do I create my own quick and dirty ethernet node transport, which will mean I will no longer be running a standard MySensors release and 'my version' will most probably fall behind, or do I go back to square one and look for a product / protocol that will cater for the future? It's going to be a difficult choice, and although I think ethernet will 'have to be incorporated' eventually, my needs for more bandwidth mean I have to find a solution now rather that in a year or two.
Regards,
Paul
@affordabletech said in Would You Like Support For ESP8266 'Nodes'?:
The whole reason I brought up this subject was after reading yet another post where a newbie wanting to use the ESP8266 without an RF device was simply told to go elsewhere.
which post was it ??
when you say people use espeasy because esp nodes not available in mysensors (in your other post), I have another theory for this. and I read it on many forum. Lot of people, maybe not all sure, but a lot, use espeasy because it's easy to use, with some basic feature, for non programmer.
I agree, and think Yveaux answer was a good one.. there is no anti, just time missing with lot of enthousiasm as always.
So what makes you reply this ??@affordabletech said in Would You Like Support For ESP8266 'Nodes'?:
My confusion was over the future direction of MySensors and I believe that's been answered very clearly. I misunderstood the focus of MySensors to be for open and effective home automation, and that's why I couldn't understand why people keen on the ESP8266 were told to go somewhere else, but now that you have told me the focus is primarily on RF and RS485, I understand and realise my mistake.
So please understand, I'm not having a go at you, I was confused by the anti ESP8266 sentiment, but that was when I didn't realise I was in an 'RF24 Shop' so to speak. If I was selling RF24 and you came in promoting ESP, I would have told you to go elsewhere, so it was my misunderstanding.
I can understand it's frustrating that there is actually no clear solution to your problem. But like it has been already said:
- gateway as node (i know it's not sexy)
- espeasy, tasmota, custom mqtt code etc..
and when there will be support in future (who knows), migrate or not.. - or like Yveaux said, feel free to help. because so far it's not in top priority I think. as it's "convenient" for the moment to use mqtt.
Last little note. You can find nrf5x node for a lot cheaper than 65$! Take a look at in the forum for aliexpress links. and you can use ESB proprietary mode (nrf24 compatible).
I know you want to use your esp chips, I'm kidding :)
i'm just sayin, it's "equivalent" in price. Nope I'm not anti. I use esp82xx, and esp32. nrf52, rfm69 etc..
one sure thing, is i wouldn't like wifi nodes everywhere, critical nodes on wifi etc..
I hope people investing in this have a dedicated network for their ha.. without nonsecured cheap camera! -
I understand limited resources all too well, I guess because ESP nodes was something I started chasing a couple years ago when the chip first became available, other forum users requesting the same stood out to me and the story was always the same use MQTT and more recently go try something else (which I read as 'Go Away!!'). A few months ago I attended a meeting at computer club in a different state and the topic of discussion was 'how can we make MySensors nodes without adding a radio'. However, looking back now, I realise I never made 'feature request' simply because I perceived a lack of interest when I saw others being told no.. no.. no.., I now wonder how many others gave up without asking formally? Of cause I don't know what makes 'enough interest' and I agree, there has to be sufficient demand.
As mentioned in another post, I seriously looked into the code with the view of writing it myself, but I could see the time needed to understand the 'internal layout and concepts' sufficiently, to implement a new transport without breaking any existing code, would be far greater than the time to write the actual routines required, and just too much for me to take on. I'm really passionate about MySensors and that's why it bothers me to hear others frustrated with it and realising I may have to start over with a different solution or (more likely) start from scratch and 'grow' my own node software to get what I need.
This afternoon I came up with an idea how I might be able to achieve what I want, without having to modify the core code. I'll be looking further into that tomorrow and will get back to you if I still think my idea is possible.
Regards,
Paul
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I understand limited resources all too well, I guess because ESP nodes was something I started chasing a couple years ago when the chip first became available, other forum users requesting the same stood out to me and the story was always the same use MQTT and more recently go try something else (which I read as 'Go Away!!'). A few months ago I attended a meeting at computer club in a different state and the topic of discussion was 'how can we make MySensors nodes without adding a radio'. However, looking back now, I realise I never made 'feature request' simply because I perceived a lack of interest when I saw others being told no.. no.. no.., I now wonder how many others gave up without asking formally? Of cause I don't know what makes 'enough interest' and I agree, there has to be sufficient demand.
As mentioned in another post, I seriously looked into the code with the view of writing it myself, but I could see the time needed to understand the 'internal layout and concepts' sufficiently, to implement a new transport without breaking any existing code, would be far greater than the time to write the actual routines required, and just too much for me to take on. I'm really passionate about MySensors and that's why it bothers me to hear others frustrated with it and realising I may have to start over with a different solution or (more likely) start from scratch and 'grow' my own node software to get what I need.
This afternoon I came up with an idea how I might be able to achieve what I want, without having to modify the core code. I'll be looking further into that tomorrow and will get back to you if I still think my idea is possible.
Regards,
Paul
@affordabletech said in Would You Like Support For ESP8266 'Nodes'?:
other forum users requesting the same stood out to me and the story was always the same use MQTT and more recently go try something else (which I read as 'Go Away!!')
If somebody is needing a functionality like you said of course it will get a response to look at something else since mysensors is lacking it and there are other working alternatives available right now. If you want to develop that functionality now it is going to take a long time and most of the people can't wait 1 or 2 years for it to become available. It is good to open a topic and have an open discussion and see if someone else is interested.
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@kimot said in Would You Like Support For ESP8266 'Nodes'?:
I think, better is, when each node with ESP8266 send messages directly to controller and controller to this node ( on its IP ).
Yes, I've had to do that for a couple of ESP8266 nodes I added recently, but the problem with that work-around is that those nodes are not really part of the network. They are 'isolated' because they bypass the gateway and cannot talk / interact with other nodes, so you no longer have an 'integrated home automation network' and it can quickly become a 'disjointed collection of random nodes'.
A lot of thought was put into the design of my system so that many of my nodes communicate direct with each other; if nodes have to depend on the controller to do their job, the system doesn't work if the controller is temporarily off-line. For example, every minute, my power monitoring node transmits total kWHr usage direct to the node in my large display panel, which displays my total power bill $'s so far this month. Most of my room lights are PIR controlled, so my outside store-room node has a PIR sensor and light relay (with manual switch also), but the PIR 'node' is smart enough to trigger a warning inside, if the PIR detects movement when my 'network' knows I'm in the house - my 'nodes' are smart enough to know which room I was last detected in, and I can't be in two places at the same time, nor can I be magically transported (yet) from one room to a non-adjacent room. So if I'm in the bathroom, and the front door opens or movement is detected in 'non adjacent' room, something is really wrong and a message 'beep twice' is sent direct to my internal siren node to alert me (unless I've told the network I have guests of cause). It's the little 'smarts' in each node that make my home automation system so personal and beneficial, that's why I am dead against 'isolated' dumb nodes. Having a PIR node send a message to the controller, then the controller send a message to the light 'relay' is dumb, the PIR node needs to talk direct to its associated relay node, which also receives regular updates, 'direct' from my outside LUX light sensor, so the 'relay node' is smart enough to know if it is appropriate to turn the light on or not.
Some people may say the controller should do this, and yes, my controller has various rules, but I prefer to add 'some' basic intelligence to the nodes so they are not dependant on the controller, simply because all my nodes are powered by a central solar charged 12V battery store, or have their own battery. However, my controller is a Windows machine because I wanted a reasonably powerful controller for data logging, statistical data, and graphs etc, so its powered from the mains. My automation/security system can function 'as normal' for over 24 hours without the controller or mains power. Each node is capable of doing its job and buffering its data while the controller is off-line, e.g. a 240V (or 12V) light will still come on when I walk into a room etc. This means I don't have to worry about my controller being off-line for maintenance, or a blackout etc, no loss of functionality or data.
Hopefully, you will see why I don't like 'isolated' nodes or 'work-arounds' that cannot be fully integrated, as the whole purpose of home automation is to integrate devices in the home.
Regards,
Paul
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@scalz said in Would You Like Support For ESP8266 'Nodes'?:
which post was it ??
The post just before mine: https://forum.mysensors.org/topic/6935/esp8266-as-mysensors-nodes-instead-of-arduino-nrf24l01/4
when you say people use espeasy because esp nodes not available in mysensors (in your other post)
That's news to me, no idea where I stated that? I can only recall mentioning EspEasy when I stated a MySensors user wanting ESP nodes was told to try EspEasy (read it for yourself in the link above). Somewhere I did say the difficulty of having to use the MQTT workaround and having to setup a computer with Mosquito was causing people to abandon MySensors, which I know to be a fact and can substantiate. Personally, I can't see any reason why someone would use EspEasy, and I'd certainly discourage anyone considering it.
Regarding the AliExpress suggestion, I appreciate the tip. Not understanding the differences between the various 5x, I'm reluctant to buy something without knowing it's suitable for MySensors. The only device that I've seen that I could confirm would run MySensors core was the RedBear board and another $69 module on eBay. If you have a specific AliExpress chip number or module reference, I'd appreciate that.
Cheers,
Paul
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And now have you got network, where RF nodes can directly communicate with RS485 nodes without controller?
I think no.@kimot said in Would You Like Support For ESP8266 'Nodes'?:
And now have you got network, where RF nodes can directly communicate with RS485 nodes without controller?
I think no.Where did you read that? I can't imagine anyone here making a statement like that. Certainly nobody has said that in this topic.
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@kimot said in Would You Like Support For ESP8266 'Nodes'?:
And now have you got network, where RF nodes can directly communicate with RS485 nodes without controller?
I think no.Where did you read that? I can't imagine anyone here making a statement like that. Certainly nobody has said that in this topic.
@affordabletech did you look at https://forum.mysensors.org/topic/6961/nrf5-bluetooth-action ?
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@kimot said in Would You Like Support For ESP8266 'Nodes'?:
And now have you got network, where RF nodes can directly communicate with RS485 nodes without controller?
I think no.Where did you read that? I can't imagine anyone here making a statement like that. Certainly nobody has said that in this topic.
I've been told "the focus of MySensors is on RF and RS-485 communications", whereas I always thought MySensors was about an 'open and practical Home Automation ....
Normally, nodes on different "media" cannot talk each to other.
So you need write code for some "super gateway", which integrate RF, RS485 and wifi, to receive data from one media and resend it to other media or to controller.
Then I suggest PJON protocol, which support synchronous and for this purpose useful asynchronous ACK and different network ID.
Or put some UPS on your windows controller. -
I've been told "the focus of MySensors is on RF and RS-485 communications", whereas I always thought MySensors was about an 'open and practical Home Automation ....
Normally, nodes on different "media" cannot talk each to other.
So you need write code for some "super gateway", which integrate RF, RS485 and wifi, to receive data from one media and resend it to other media or to controller.
Then I suggest PJON protocol, which support synchronous and for this purpose useful asynchronous ACK and different network ID.
Or put some UPS on your windows controller. -
@gohan
I think he wants integrate ESP8266 to be able talk directly to other MySensors nodes.
Here is his answer:*Yes, I've had to do that for a couple of ESP8266 nodes I added recently, but the problem with that work-around is that those nodes are not really part of the network. They are 'isolated' because they bypass the gateway and cannot talk / interact with other nodes, so you no longer have an 'integrated home automation network' and it can quickly become a 'disjointed collection of random nodes'.
A lot of thought was put into the design of my system so that many of my nodes communicate direct with each other; if nodes have to depend on the controller to do their job, the system doesn't work if the controller is temporarily off-line..... * -
@kimot said in Would You Like Support For ESP8266 'Nodes'?:
And now have you got network, where RF nodes can directly communicate with RS485 nodes without controller?
I think no.Where did you read that? I can't imagine anyone here making a statement like that. Certainly nobody has said that in this topic.
@affordabletech Playing with custom transport isn't that hard. Here is an unfinished example if you want to follow this path (sorry, I did it in a hurry, so maybe it isn't very self explanatory):
https://github.com/marceloaqno/MySensors/commit/696d0d3993d88b2dc4565db6cb12f57a461372adI think there has never been much interest in creating an ethernet transport before, given the fact that mysensors don't support multiple transports. But there is some work being done to change that.
Building a node-to-node network using Ethernet with a standard client-server topology wouldn't be an easy task, I don't know how you intend to do it, but MQTT could help you with that.
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@marceloaqno ppp
Thanks for the link, I really appreciate the constructive attitude. It might just be what I need to take the plunge and dive in...I'll have a look and get back to you.
Paul
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@AffordableTech
in aliexpress, type "nrf51822" or "nrf52832", and you'll find lot of different dev boards, "final" products etc.. few bucks and more. There is also adafruit, sparkfun (> 15$ .. I agree), or even an original nordic nrf5x dev board is 40$, worth it for dev.
it works in MySensors https://www.openhardware.io/view/376/MySensors-NRF5-Platform- nrf52832: more ios, more peripherals, nfc+ ble or ESB(rf24 compatible mode), very low power. and soon nrf52840 will provide more range (integrated pa), integrated usb, 5v tolerant etc.
- esp8266 ?? wifi ? power hungry. limited ios and peripheral. else it's fun "toy" to play and tinker, I agree. I have a bunch of them that I won't never use I think :confused:
I'm not telling to give up on your esp or "go else where" (though, I haven't read the user said that in the other post, he was just trying to help with what he knows is available).
If you ask me, I prefer esp32 instead of esp8266.. I'm using esp32 for gw/bridge only, personally I think it's dumb to use wifi nodes for everything. I imagine people wanting that, would be mainly for convenience, money maybe or because they don't know pros&cons and alternatives.+1 for marcelo comment above
Lack of time is main problem. So why not helping us, you're welcome! the more features in MySensors, the more fun, and .. the more maintenance :grimacing:Edit: I didn't see your reply above, great to hear ;)
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Thanks @scalz,
A very helpful an welcoming reply.Im no great fan of ESP, particularly becuse of its lack of i/o but it seems ideal for a simple node wirh one switch or I2C sensir.
Here (in Australia) Adafruit and Spark fun products are 200% to 300% higher than US price. I get stuff direct from them when I need qty, but fir 1 or 2 boards, the shipping is just too expensive. So yes, an Adafruit or Spark 5x here is $65.
Anyhow, I will be checking out AliExpress - thanks!
If I can contribute, I will, I'm so happy with my HA, I want to see everyone experiencing what a truly 'smart home' is about. Hardware vendors push their own idea of smart home, but many dont want to share data with competitors products. Sharing data etc is what makes o.s. projects so great. If I can create, or help to create an ethernet based nodes, that would be fantastic as I know how good it is if a simple MySensors temp sensor could switch on a heater 'direct' without having to rely on a controller.
The reason u think this is good, is because little micro processors just seem to do their job year after year, without maintenance, as long as you feed them 'volts'. Complex controllers just are not as reliable.
My water heater is controlled by Arduino which saves me $1,200 pa at least. My hot water now costs 35 cents a day (because it knows my patterns), whereas it usdd to cost $2 to $3 per day keeping it at 55 deg c (thermostats often not adjustable in Oz).I just need 40 deg most of the day (for hand wash etc) and a 'boost' to 55 deg just before my shower/bath. If I want a shower at an 'unusual' time, I have a 'boost' button on my phone or PC and 15 min later water is HOT!. $1200+ for the occasional inconvenience of waiting 15 min is
fine'smart' by me.Cheers,
Paul....
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Thanks @scalz,
A very helpful an welcoming reply.Im no great fan of ESP, particularly becuse of its lack of i/o but it seems ideal for a simple node wirh one switch or I2C sensir.
Here (in Australia) Adafruit and Spark fun products are 200% to 300% higher than US price. I get stuff direct from them when I need qty, but fir 1 or 2 boards, the shipping is just too expensive. So yes, an Adafruit or Spark 5x here is $65.
Anyhow, I will be checking out AliExpress - thanks!
If I can contribute, I will, I'm so happy with my HA, I want to see everyone experiencing what a truly 'smart home' is about. Hardware vendors push their own idea of smart home, but many dont want to share data with competitors products. Sharing data etc is what makes o.s. projects so great. If I can create, or help to create an ethernet based nodes, that would be fantastic as I know how good it is if a simple MySensors temp sensor could switch on a heater 'direct' without having to rely on a controller.
The reason u think this is good, is because little micro processors just seem to do their job year after year, without maintenance, as long as you feed them 'volts'. Complex controllers just are not as reliable.
My water heater is controlled by Arduino which saves me $1,200 pa at least. My hot water now costs 35 cents a day (because it knows my patterns), whereas it usdd to cost $2 to $3 per day keeping it at 55 deg c (thermostats often not adjustable in Oz).I just need 40 deg most of the day (for hand wash etc) and a 'boost' to 55 deg just before my shower/bath. If I want a shower at an 'unusual' time, I have a 'boost' button on my phone or PC and 15 min later water is HOT!. $1200+ for the occasional inconvenience of waiting 15 min is
fine'smart' by me.Cheers,
Paul....
TO ALL IN THIS TOPIC
I though it was appropriate I acknowledge that I now realise I misunderstood there was anti-ESP sentiment here, its more a case of just too busy to jump onto every idea mentioned. Like a few others who spoke to me, I failed to make an official request, therefore until I did and was told err.. 'where to go', I should not have assumed anything.There was never any ill intention, just frustration as I probably love MySensors as much as anybody else here. Like everyone, I have real time restraints, but if I can conribute, I will.
My thanks to everyone who has taken the time to comment.
Paul
