Where did everyone go?

[Puneit Thukral]

I have said this before (I do not know where) but here it is again.
One of the reasons that MySensors didn't become as popular as other frameworks is because it somewhat matured before YouTubers were popular. Today, fewer people like to read, and most like to watch a YouTube video sitting on the toilet. The YouTubers not only provide step by step instructions, they do live streams and then there are Discord servers.

I myself manage a small discord server on Home Automation and I see everyday newbies coming in and they are looking for a magical cheap solution which somehow works.
The barrier for entry into MySensors is big (involves a lot more wires, it does not seem sexy, no one talks about it on YouTube). On the other hand, everyone has an ISP given All-In-One router+AP+DHCP server and ESPs simply connect to them. Everyday Amazon, AliExpress etc are flooding the market with Wifi based products, so the time for feeling of gratification is very small. You buy, plug in, use the app and it works

That said, we do have a dedicated MySensors channel on our discord server and I have been pushing (literally) people to try MySensors. Serious DIYers are still interested and I have successfully introduced 4 people to it, 2 have started using it.

I won't call the Mysensors a stagnant or dying breed but the concept of forums in my opinion is. Forums are still the most structured support system (I am not saying otherwise) but many people want instant answers, - they do not want to make the effort asking a good question. And across many forums which have been there for a few years, a common answer is "search before you ask".

This is my two cents on this topic

[ProfRob]

I am new here at MySensors. But I have my own ideas and do not want to adapt to a given middleware or networking. My reason to be here is the know-how presented by the many contributors of the forum.

I like the idea of Arduino very much. Having your basic routines running on nearly any hardware is really a nice thing. And after a first look into MySensors software, I also like it. Though I will not use it, because I have other ideas on microcontroller communication.

Do we really need to go with the "mainstream"? I think, the mainstream of software development has become a kind of "gaming" in the last years. It seems not to be necessary to know anything about programming, just be able to move your mouse and make some drags and drops her and there. Being an expert based on the knowledge of other people (companies).

As long as here are real experts talking about details of microcontrollers and their application, I will stay here.

[zboblamont]

I can only speak from my own experience, MySensors filled the gap at a time when commercial offerings still hadn't taken off, and as has been mentioned already, proprietary protocols and internet reliance put me off then and still does.

The combination of Domoticz and Mysensors suited my own needs of data acquisition rather than control, and although I've considered modifying and incorporating commercial devices since, they ultimately hit the brick wall of what CAN be done rather than what I need.

Hobbyist interest will come and go, but the forum inactivity is probably more testament to MySensors reliability for the vast majority who once flooded the place, and any new users find most of the answers they need here, so never pose a question
If it ain't broke don't fix it sort of idea - eg I had put off updating the IDE and MySensors until around a month back, a bit of a headache when I did, but it was soon sorted and back to silently doing what I need.

Is there competition with the huge variety of plug and go devices in elegant cases now available ? I suggest not.
For those wanting off the shelf solutions with limits there is a product, but why would I want 5 individual devices in a single space rather than the one currently, or the mobile apps for each, or the app to save me walking 3m to switch the light on/off ?
Domoticz and MySensors are not flawless, neither the Pi3 nor the Arduino are the latest MCUs, but the combo is plenty capable of doing what I require, and for an old fart like me, plenty. ;)

[jenspr]

yes, that's the point: who is the user? And than focus on how to satisfy the user ;-)

I do not think that it is wrong or less valueable to set up an easy to use software that every dummy-youtuber can describe in a 5minutes clip.

Let me compare again with the development on the controller side.
When i started to search for home automation FHEM was very famous as one example. Such a strong system. It has been the first possibility to handle the different devices. If you have been able to get something work after hours of searching through the forum and editing various config files, it felt so cool, you are a hacker. Not every newbie could do...
Now you find approaches which are so easy to use via a webinterface. You get ready to use packages for different linux distributions and find most devices in auto configuration. That is contamporary and sexy.

In the end even the experts take it. Why not, they can spend the time in hacking on other cool stuff.
And of course in the background are still the cool hacker working on the code or developing extensions ;-) but the user just uses it and does not be able to program.
Because so many user use it also more pro's work on it and because the youtuber can get 10 minutes fame even more user use it and so on and so..

[NeverDie]

I suppose the abundance of similar but non-identical mysensor solutions might cause people to wonder which one to build. I say that, having recently moved from Windows over to Linux, where there is a similar hyper-abundance of distros to sort through before picking one.

[TheoL]

To me it is a lack of time. Still have tons of projects not finished. Right now really focused more on making the whole eco system Usable. As far as I can tell not one single HA system is usable for a mere mortal. It's either centered around a mobile phone, which is a no-no for me. It's not reliable in terms of battery can be low while you want to turn something on or off and the screen is too small for eco systems that cover an entire house. And when they're not centered around a mobile phone everything is glued together with scripts. It's all too complicated. I think I can make it more simple xd

[NeverDie]

@TheoL Yes,, it's strange how home automation can get so complicated when it seems like it should be easy. I happen to think this is where mysensors has the upper hand, because if you can imagine the solution, then you can program it with real programming languages. Ultimately, with systems that are "dumbed down" and meant to be simple, you end up fighting with the limitations of whatever simplifying framework is used to make it simple, and, ironically, all the workarounds make it complex. With those you either have to settle for less than what you wanted, or else you end up with an unwieldy system because it lacks the expressive power to easily capture what you want.

[TheoL]

@NeverDie I'm actually looking for a team backend and frontend to help me reinvent home automation. And give it back to all people, not only the technical ones. I've done quiet a lot of pocs to test me ideas. Preferably Python back end, so I can do some help in coding xd

Current HA systems are difficult. In comparison to the real world, it means that when you want to change a light bulb, you have to completely rewire the fixture in which the lightbulb you wanted to replace was in.

I think it's too complicated ^^

[NeverDie]

@TheoL If you're serious about it, I suggest you start a thread by laying out your ideas in the opening post and explain why your new approach is fundamentally better than whatever the existing alternatives are. If people agree with you, then you will have started a movement, and if they don't,... well, better to know that sooner rather than later, right?

[monte]

@NeverDie said in Where did everyone go?:

it's strange how home automation can get so complicated when it seems like it should be easy.

I think that's a wrong idea. Automation can not be simple, otherwise it would be made automated from the beginning. The key feature of any automation is to set it up once and then gain the benefits of not doing something again and again, it's basically investing. Why would you expect to gain much, with little investment?
It may be that the field of private home and appliances is wrong for the concept of automation, because automating basic home is not going to produce much benefits in the end, so you either over-invest in terms of money or time, or get very simple system that isn't an automation in it's best meaning.

[TheoL]

@monte As a UX designer I dare to differ. HA anno 2021 is overly complicated. No one needs to know how to wire a light fixture. You just change the light bulb when it's broken. Or if in some cases hire an electrician.

I believe I can design things much much simpler. And make it usable.

[monte]

@TheoL you can buy philips or ikea zigbee bulbs and not change any wiring. That has some limitation and stability problems though, that's why serious automations require proper wiring and project development.

[TheoL]

@monte We must have a conversation in a chat or something. to me Ikea is not usable at all. Usable meaning effictive, efficient and looking good.

[monte]

@TheoL I am just saying from my experience. At one place I use KNX where it was prewired according to a plan, mysensors and ikea in places that where added after the wiring and walls were finished. I have had issues with Ikea bulbs disconnecting and needing repairing with hub, but in the end it is viable solution if you can't change wiring. I also tried Z-wave and it was much more expensive and worse. For zigbee there are opensourse projects that may work better then proprietary hub, but I didn't bother to try them yet.
But anyway, if you want everything to work reliably and be failproof you should plan everything ahead and know what you are doing and how. And I don't think that it's something particularly bad. Someone has to do work to achieve something great. It either you, or someone who you are paying either with money, or other things like your privacy, for example.
And I am not saying, that this will never change, technology is evolving and becoming more robust and sophisticated, I just don't see it changing drastically in nearest future.
Anyway, if you're going to achieve what you are envisioning, I will be happy for those people who will open wonders of home automation for themselves without doing any research.

[ProfRob]

Hello @monte and @TheoL
I wanted to join your discussion here, but that may go off topic for this thread. So I started a new thread here, hoping to meet your theme.

[oneyb]

Hi Everyone,

I initially started with a goal and MySensors suited, and was very approachable. I built it and it still works. I didn't need much help.

I had a bunch of fun getting things to work and acquired some skills. The work with MySensors helped me get a job as an embedded software engineer, with my environmental sciences i.e. data analysis background.

Since getting that job, I have moved much more towards minimalism in my private life. As such I am designing simple systems that don't need automating, and asking myself what I need. My current focus during my spare time on ultralight winter backpacking/skitouring as well as vipassana meditation helps me see more clearly what is necessary to be happy. My insight does not bode well for most of current IoT use.

I may make some noise when I have decided that a certain thing is necessary AND I need help OR if I dare to show off ;). Meanwhile, enjoy the peace and quiet.

I think when I do get back into MySensors, it will be when I combine my statistics and firmware knowledge: so-called embedded AI applied to inventory management. That is also the solution to truly devalue a cloud connection, in my opinion. Do the work locally (or on your gateway), and say something, if necessary. We'll see if that tendency/thought makes sense in a few years.

I will also revisit MySensors when I want to build an energy harvesting sensor. This is somewhat proximate. I am not a big fan of batteries.

Thank you for the support and the handy framework. I am grateful for the simple systems that work, and keep working.

Going outside now :).

Kind regards,
Brian

[feanor-anglin]

Let's dig out this thread a little. I am a person who's started my own MySensors based hardware project (GetWired, I wrote about it somewhere on this forum), so I probably can be described as an involved user. Somehow it happened that I haven't become an active user on this forum, on one hand I didn't have to write here, because all problems I've encountered were described earlier. On the other hand, I didn't receive much interest after publishing anything (openhardware designs, project related posts).

In my opinion, MySensors with nRF24 has very strong competition, especially taking into consideration the low reliability of this radio. It's easier and better to buy cheap Shelly or other Sonoff. Using nRF52 would help a lot, but it is much more complicated, at least in my opinion.

Second thing is the development of MySensors has slowed down a lot (last commit March 20th). If so, there is not much to discuss here.

Third thing is connected to the development of my own project. Me and my colleague managed to put it on a successful crowdfunding and build a community elsewhere. All this with no support from this community and especially from the MySensors "authorities". I don't want to complain, I just think such initiatives could meet with higher interest from everyone involved in the development of MySensors, because it would be mutually beneficial.

[NeverDie]

@feanor-anglin said in Where did everyone go?:

I just think such initiatives could meet with higher interest from everyone involved in the development of MySensors, because it would be mutually beneficial.

This is the first I've heard of your project, but I have no idea where it is. Maybe post a link to it? If you already have in some other thread, the problem is that not everyone reads every thread or tracks every post.

[feanor-anglin]

@NeverDie I perfectly understand how it works and that it is impossible to reach everyone with a post. I've wrote about it here.

[TheoL]

@feanor-anglin it really looks very interesting to me. And if I'd renovate my house or bought a new house. I'd go for wired for sure. I'm running my sensors with NRF24L01+ for over 7 years now. And I actually didn't notice any problem. It's very reliable, but I admit the radio is very picky on it's power. Most problems I ran into where all power related.

Why I've been absent for a long time has several personal reasons. I needed to finish a study I was following next to my job. And after I finished it I had some health issues. And when I decided to get back into it. My dad passed away. We're now cleaning out his workshop, he earned his living as an electronics repair man. I'm keeping the stuff I can use, like the Fluke meters - although they are 20 years old they still work good - his lab power supply and stuff like that. It's also to moment to redo my own workshop. Because the organization was completely lost. I ordered a lot of parts the last years but never took the time to store them.

So hopefully this will al be done and I can finally finish some of the projects that are laying on my desk for years