Gateway device
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Looking Good!
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Can't say much other, than I'm excited to see where this is going... The only thing that I would like to vote for, is that you keep the atsha chip on board (not optional).
Thanks for your hard work!
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I just ordered both ESP8266-01, and a W5100 breakout board, of the types that I think would be usable in this design (Both of them are available from iTeadstudio btw). Just to have some mechanical samples that I can measure dimensions, and connector placements.
So will wait for them to arrive from China.. I will also try to fit everything on one side of the PCB, right now I have an FTDI chip, and a capacitor on the backside (besides a footprint for the RFM69 pcb, which is up to the end user to mount).
ATSHA204 will be a mandatory part of the design anyways. We can just as well put in some security measures in our designs.
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Just tried to create a new stanza in the boards.txt file, defining a board with an atmega1284p MCU. Seems like arduino accepts it, as I am able to use Serial1.begin(); in my code. If I switch back to compile it for a standard atmega328p target, it fails on Serial1.begin(). Also Serial2.begin() fails on atemega1284p target, so this indicates to me that it knows about this CPU from the beginning.
So from an arduino point of view, there is no problem in using atmega1284(p) as target device. (I haven't got one on hand, so can't do any specific testing besides trying to compile things).
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@tbowmo sure
in general arduino can handle any AVR8 from atmel
my comment was about "not a standard arduino MCU" means it is not described inside official board.txtif i'm not mistaken atmega644 (same family as atmega1284) is used in reprap and it is arduino too
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Hi,
this is my first post and I've pointed here by @hek while discussing of MySensor and Souliss (that is a project similar and different at same time from MySensor).
Just yesterday we got Souliss running on ESP8266 thanks to the porting of the Arduino cores on that MCU, this is an option that in my opinion you should take in account. The use of ESP8266 (and generally of all other) as WiFi to USART isn't impressive, I've never been in love with AT commands and I prefer binary communication compared to ASCII, but generally your AVR USART became your bottleneck.
Compared to SPI, USART isn't a master/slave protocol and the communication is driven by the transceiver, this is a really mess. When you use SPI, your low-RAM AVR decide when read data and this allow you to use the RAM of the transceiver as an external buffer, the tranceiver has mostly more RAM than the AVR.
While running over USART, the transceiver send data when want, so you should care on the AVR of buffering and process the frame only once is complete.More, the ESP8266 has multiple firmware release that doesn't provide a consistent behavior, so you end-up with a your own firmware to bridge data to USART. But once you need to program the ESP8266, you are just a step away to load on it the whole code.
Hope that this can help.
Regards,
Dario.
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You got a couple of good points there.. So your advice is to find a SPI device for WiFi instead of the ESP8266 module?
Been looking for it, and only found CC3000 module, which (if I remember right) have problems with stability. Is there anything else out there that is affordable for WiFi connection, and usable from Arduino?
What I want in this device, is to have multiple connection methods, that is you can have nrf24l01+ for 2g4 sensor networks, rfm69 for sub 1Ghz sensor networks, and then choose between wired or wireless LAN connectivity to your controller (or serial, if that is wanted).
At the same time, we need to have security in mind, and support the standard authentication methods that is available for mysensors by now (using ATSHA204 chips).
I haven't looked that much at the ESP8266 as a platform thing, but it might be limited as a target platform, if we want to have all the different technologies connected.
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Actually there is really no reason to still use AVR, while there are good reason to use Arduino. I mean, ESP8266 is a SoC that contains both MCU and WiFi radio, you can program the MCU directly and run on it what you need.
Actually there is a porting of Arduino (as core of libraries and methods) to the ESP8266 that is very stable and let you run your own code on the module itself, without have an AVR in between. The ESP8266 has also SPI hardware support, that can give you the way to interact to common radio like nRF24 or RFM69, even if some porting will be required to get the goal. Actually we have just ported Souliss and running over ESP8266 and is really working smoothly.
In terms of hardware there is no one good answer, mostly depends on your (and MySensor) architecture. The Souliss architecture support multiple bridge and routers, with RF and RS485 communication, so it makes sense for us to have nodes based on microcontrollers, this keep power usage and complexity low.
But if you have a start architecture (and probably MySensor has, correct me if I'm wrong) it may also make sense to move to OS based devices with an RF radio to join small and cheap microcontroller nodes.I know that design need a full stop, otherwise ideas storm far away from the goal. I'm just here to say that use a WiFi to USART device as transceiver for a 2Kbyte or 8 Kbyte RAM microcontroller is a bad design, and in my opinion non-WiFi RF may have short life in smarthome solutions.
What I saw in the three years running Souliss, is that further you try to automate, more likely you end up into a central point of decision, that is an OS based device. So you likely will be into a native WiFi or Ethernet device and this lead to use those technology widely, this is likely if you cannot run new cables. If you can run cables, RS485 looks still a good solution.
Regards,
Dario.
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Thanks for the feedback @plinioseniore .
Yes, but still, isn't power consumption a bit too high on these puppies to use them for battery operated devices?
Last time I checked they were like 10x NRF. And I imagine powerup/reconnect time to a wifi network is much longer than the parts of a second we see for NRF24L01.Still it it would be very interesting to get the MySensors library up and running in an ESP! The more options the better. There isn't really any platform quirks or libraries used in the development branch.
For a ESP <-> NRF/RF69 gateway device, power consumption is not an issue. And I agree that it is bad that the USART communication is slow (and non consistent between versions) but it should still be able to shuffle around 70 (MySensors) messages per second at a moderate 19200 bps.
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It mostly depends on what you need, as pointed before, my problem wasn't the USART speed it self.
But that I was no longer able to use the transceiver as a buffer, because is the transceiver to decide when send data over the USART, rather SPI as master allow the MCU to decide when get data.This is a problem with ATmega328 that has much less RAM that the transceiver that is attached to, but of course depends also on the average lenght of the frames that you over the air.
Dario.
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Ok guys, I need some feedback before I start routing PCB again (for the 10th time :))
Could some of you please look at the schematics, and see if I have missed something? Also, I have made some design decisions lately, where I removed LEDs / buttons, and placed a pinheader for MMI. I have also added an extra pinheader for the unused GPIOs
Also, for refference, here are a 3d drawing of the current component layout.
It's designed so that antennas for NRF module / ESP8266 is hanging over the edge on the board (in the bottom of the picture), and W5100 board is having the ethernet connector besides the micro usb connector (which is top right of the picture). ISP programming header is located on the bottom side of the PCB, as it's only needed for initial development.
This is still a conceptual thing though..
So any comments, please?
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KiCad FTW!
Looks good to me. I have been able to run the ATSHA SDA pin without a pull without problems but I do know Atmel recommends it so I guess it might be good to have. It should not need to be of any high precision so it ought to be cheap.
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It doesn't cost anything to add footprints for extra pullup resistors, or decoupling caps. (Other than some time placing them). So I am throwing it in wherever I can..
I have sticked with 0603 components btw. So it should be easier to hand solder the first prototypes
The board is still 5x5 cm, probably being 4 layer so I can get room for all the wiring.
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@tbowmo
Ah, did not see a no-mount indicator for it so I assumed it would be mounted by default. I agree on keeping all options open if space allows for it.
Yes, you probably have to go 4-layer on that. I had some trouble fitting the routs on my sensorboard in that space. And it has less components.
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Havent set any components as NM yet
just throwing components iñ at the moment
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I'm sure I missed it but..... as it stands this can be used as a serial gateway correct?
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re: PoE supply
http://www.freetronics.com.au/products/power-over-ethernet-regulator-8023af#.VWCsPLmqqko
is cheap and easy you may be able to piggy back it on the board.
hope it helps
phil
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@ServiceXp
It could be used as serial gateway, there's a ftdi chip onboard. But also place for Ethernet and WiFi connections, together with both nrf24 module and a rfm69 module.
Made to be as versatile as possible.
Ethernet is an add-on module, so a bit hard to implement Poe circuitry on this board. If we could find w5100 module with Poe, it might work.
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Btw. Would it be an idea to include a sensor onboard? (Si7021)
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I see no reason not to (depending on available space) add footprints for various "standard" sensors in addition to a IO header on the board. I have no idea on what impact it has on the sw to have a gateway report sensor values to "itself" but I see no reason for why that could not be supported (if it isn't already).
End of double-negations
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What do you define as "standard" sensors?
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@tbowmo
Perhaps an unfortunate label. I guess standard footprints would be a better word. I mean footprints for the most commonly used sensor cases. TO-92, DFN and etc. connected such as the typical sensors (1-wire temps and Si7021 like) will "fit".
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Problem is that each sensor has its own pinout, so you can't make generic footprints.
There already is a GPIO header, with 8 pins (4 analog and 4 digital) plus power. So people can make their own daughterboards with sensors. Might convert 2 of them to i2c bus with pull up, and then have si7021 onboard.
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Have you considered Grove plugs for sensors? This can give flexibility and a large enough number of sensors at a reasonable price.
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Problem is space on the pcb
as I see it Grove connectors are big and bulky. I have placed a couple of pinheaders (one 8 pin, and one 12 pins) for external devices right now..
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I think a header for daughterboards will go far in terms of flexibility.
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updated the first post in the thread, with links to github project, and pdf of schematics (on github). So it will always point at the latest available one, so I don't have to remember that there is a forum thread to keep updated
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Nice nice. I am very interested in this as I have more or less decided to swap to RF69 from RF24. Both for range and because I like the concept of having the radio handle the encryption on my signed packets (yep, I am paranoid as hell). Unfortunately, it means my current gateway has to go but I have made a "sensor evaluation board" (got the PCBs, still waiting for components). Once I get the components and can verify all the features I put on it I will publish it in this forum for those interested. It will still rely on Arduino modules and such so it is not the hard-core approach like the Sensebender Micro though.
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@tbowmo
I believe you previously had the interrupt for RF69 connected. But it does not seem to be anymore. Any particular reason for skipping that?
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I'm still rearranging things in the schematics, in order to get the best board layout :).
Could we go with one combined irq for both radio modules? (rfm69/Nrf24)?
/ Thomas
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I see no reason why that would not work. I sure hope so as I did that on my board
Both radios will never be connected (or at least in use) simultaneously so it should be ok.
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could be someone got brainfreeze and decided to go with both radios at once in one setup.. On the other hand, we're not using IRQ for the nrf24 at the moment..
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@tbowmo
Even so, the electrical properties of the interrupt outputs on the module should ensure no meltdown occurs. And I think the user would get bigger problems than just having to figure out the origin of the interrupt
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On the other hand, is there a usecase to provide HW interrupt functionality for a dagughterboard on the gateway? Since it will "by definition" have a solid power supply, any sensors using interrupts should be fine with the soft-interrupt options (have not looked into those myself though) or simply use polling. Power saving makes little sense in this case. The radios are probably better off with "real" interrupts (if we ever use them).
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been fiddling with layout, and schematics changes..
Added a couple of MAX3002E for level conversion between 5V and 3V3 domains on the board. (Links to the schematic are in the first post of this thread)
Waiting for samples of the ESP8266, and W5100 modules, so I can make some last measurements before ordering boards.
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Hi,
just want to share with you some of our progress in a board similar to the one that you are designing.
This is based on Atmega32U4 and has socket for nRF24L01 and ESP8266 and is designed to be battery operated and support Grove connector. The board has mosfet to switch off the sensor while sleeping and keep low the consumption, this should stand a year on battery.
We just received the PCB, picture at the link below,
http://www.souliss.net/2015/06/sensor-battery-board-pcb-arrived.htmlThe schematic and layout are open-source and hope that this board may fit some needs also in the MySensor community
https://github.com/souliss/boards/tree/master/Battery_Operated_Board/Ver1Regards,
Dario.
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Looks like a nice board you have created... Only problem is, that we run out of memory on atmega328, if we want to run with signing and have MQTT client on board.
So that is why we have bumped the processor to a atmega1284 instead, having 4 times the memory, than atmega328. Also, with this board, we have the posibility to use both RFM69 and NRF24L01 on the sensor network..
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Tried to make a concept drawing, of NRF module placement
the esp8266 is placed in a similar way, on the right edge of the board, also hanging over the edge with the antenna part.
the W5100 board (which is similar to this one from itead studio) is turned 180 degrees, which makes the ethernet jack placement above the large "empty" space on the board (there is a 2x3 pinheader in the concept drawing)
The micro usb connector will be just beside the ethernet jack. between the ether jack, and the single pinheader pin (this is the antenna connection point for the rfm69 you can put on the bottom of the board)
Things are still a bit conceptual, trying to visualize it for my self
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I'll second (third? fourth? whatever...) the suggestion to design this to fit a cheap and readily available enclosure. Something like:
(Not saying that's ideal; just an example.)
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the board is 50x50 mm, and with the radio / wifi protruding over the edge, this box should fit nicely.
The reason why I chose 50x50mm for the board size, is that it's either 50x50mm, or 100x100mm board when we order prototypes, which is more expensive. (And I like to make things small :))
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Agree about smaller. Everything looks classier with less wasted space.
Probably too late now, but if the board had mounting holes that lined up with the enclosure that would be sweet. I'm always at a loss for how to keep my boards stable inside their plastic homes. Would love to hear peoples' solutions for mounting when the holes don't line up.
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nothing's too late (yet). I haven't even ordered the first prototype batch yet. Still ironing out some details, and routing the PCB (I have only scratched the routing for the 10th time or so :s ). Actually I had thought about adding a couple of mounting holes in the board..
I'll see if the boxes that I have, resembles the one that I just linked to.. (I've talked with @hek about finding some enclosures a couple of days ago, when we suddenly found a seller on ali express, that only had enclosures of various kinds).
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Yes the Atmega32U4 and Atmega328 has in the RAM their main problem, in our case we run smoothly in the 2KBytes available because we don't use ASCII in the protocol, but binary only.
Then the board is for as a remote sensor node, running on battery, not a main gateway board.
In any case, the board that you are designing will work nicely also with Souliss.
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@tbowmo Mounting holes would be very good.
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ok now with mounting holes. Or sort of.. the holes are 4.8cm apart, center to center, and the pcb is 5cm wide. I have used this case as a template.
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and now with a w5100 module attached
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very nice board, bravo !
thank you for sharing your work and knowledge.
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Sweet!!!
Sign me up for 5!
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You put a work into this board and it looks great. Cannot wait for it to come available.
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@tbowmo My hat is off to you, for the major effort put forth along with @blacey ,@Anticimex , @axillent and @hek to name but a few.
While following this thread at times lost (mostly?) with explanations and concepts I have been learning which is half the battle.
It seems it never too late for a old dog to learn a little.
However it seems there is a need for a better gw from some of the threads I have read.
I for one will purchase a unit in what ever form it morphs into.Great work with all these boards.
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I'm still routing the board, it's more complicated than my previous boards, so will be a bit longer process to get all in place.
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A small update here, on an even larger update on the gateway device.
After some considerations, I have decided to switch the MCU for the GW to an atmel SAM D21G, instead of atmega1284. While doing this I have reduced the BOM for the GW, and cut about 1/3 of the BOM price.
The D21G is the same chip that's on the new arduino zero, and also on a kickstarter project called neutrino. @blacey is the one who pointed me in that direction
While being a more powerful chip (256kb flash, 32kb ram, 48 MHz, loads of extra peripherals) it is actually cheaper than the atmega1284, and it has build in USB controler, so the ftdi chip could be removed, a couple of other glue components is also gone now.
It will mean that we have to work a bit harder at getting mysensors running, but since the MCU is supported by arduino, we should be able to manage.
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very interesting! I didn't know neutrino, pretty nice board. Seems there will be some work on software part but it is doable like you said. And you will have more power, which is nice for the GW I think, and I like when chip is usb compatible (like pic18f4550 ...). Maybe one day, it will become HID, lol!
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I didn't know of the neutrino (or arduino zero) before @blacey mentioned it to me, and he finally got me convinced that I should swap the atmega1284. (I know that @axillent tried to convince me to use another chip, than the atmega, before.. But when you find this, and it can reduce board complexity..)
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@tbowmo: it is likely same things for me. lots of 8/16bits chip collection (microchip). but never moved to 32bit even if i have a 32bit usb bit wacker (not time to test it). I was thinking that you can do lot of things with 8bit chips. So yesterday, I have read a little the datasheet atsamd21. Wow, 1077 pages! But there is lots lots of features! I think I will try to order one sample for my collection! Plus, these chips seems to be not expensive but there is some learning curve on it. I think Microchip have missed a big move with arduino platform!
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A couple of late night shots, of the progress..
Getting ready for the first prototype spin of the board
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That right there is a work of art!
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You may be interested in this Arduino shield:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/WireLess-Gate-Shield-DIY-Maker-Seeed-BOOOLE-/171713943896?hash=item27faf2d958It has both NRF24L01+ and RFM69HW radios.
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@tbowmo this gw is looking good, hope the prototypes get to you soon!
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The first pcb's have arrived today.
They came a bit faster from dirtypcbs.com, than I had expected. So haven't even sourced the components yet.
So need to look into that the next couple of days.
with W5100 / NRF module "mounted" :
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@tbowmo No mounting holes?
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@ServiceXp
As we need to bring things to life on a new MCU core (Cortex M0), I decided to just make a "simple" dev board, without holes. They will probably be added on the next iteration of the board. (Besides that, 3 of the corners are a bit crammed with components, so no place for the holes anyway.)
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@tbowmo: very beautiful board. I can't wait to see how it will work. And your feedback about dirtypcb. I often use seeed for their price. But dirty seems good too regarding their shipping rates. I like osh sometimes for their beautiful boards.
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Haven't tried any of the other "cheap" board houses. But I'm glad for the quality that dirtypcbs are delivering, and the price can't be argued about..
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thx good to know.
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great
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Just learned a lesson the hard way, the last couple of days.. Discovered that I hadn't read the datasheet for the atsamd21 good enough, so I had connected all the PINS for the SPI / UARTs completely wrong. Which means 10-12 connections that was wrong (the board uses 3 SPI ports and 2 UARTs, one SPI doubles as UART, depending on the network interface connected)
So new boards are in the pipeline from dirtypcbs.com
This is btw improved on a couple of other points, compared to the previous board. Biggest is, that it now has 4 x 3mm mounting holes, (happy now @ServiceXp ? :)). It also got a couple of extra solder jumpers on the backside, that could be used for software configurations, or test points.
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@tbowmo: what a bad luck! but it is so easy to miss something when you look at the datasheet size
I hope you will get it working like you want, I am sure
I like your enlarged pads for 0402. Is it easier to solder like this? Do you handsolder it? Do you think using 0603/0805 with no enlarged pads would take same place???I am asking this for my future designs, in case. But 0402 is so small...
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I'm using 0603 components this time, as I'm not under that big a space constraint, as on the sensebender micro.
The biggest issue is the finepitched SAMD21, have to be extra careful not to make solder bridges between the pins..
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@tbowmo: 0603, cool. I have some samd21 sample but have not tried to solder them. it looks tiny but I think I will be able but not without some
thank you for your precision
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atsamd21 comes in 3 variants, with 32, 48 og 64 pins (If I remember right). I'm using the 64 pin variant
If things go well with this one, then I might make a sensebender micro 2, with an 32 pin atsamd20 (almost the same as d21, but without USB host/slave capabilities)
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@tbowmo: oh, i have the 48p variant. so I will try to use it in another project in the future. and will order other sample.
sensebender micro2 atsam, wow, crazy thing! could be fun to see this
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@tbowmo Now that's what I'm talking about.. Those holes look so sexy.... wait, that doesn't sound right.... :bowtie:
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@tbowmo How is the testing going?
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@ServiceXp
I just received the PCBs for the second prototype spin yesterday, the first spin had too many errors in the routing around SPI / UARTS so I decided to ditch it, and do a second spin. Dirtypcbs got some hickups processing my gerbers but finaly made the boards.
I hope that I can get around to assemble one this weekend, but I can't promise anything, as I have been loaded more than 150% with work (both from my employer, and from the wife).
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@tbowmo Sounds Good, Thanks for the update.
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Images of the latest pcb's (Before SMD assembly)
Unfortunately I "injured" my back today (aah, maybe not injured, but feels like it :() so I'm on strong medics to keep the pain away. That means that didn't get around to do the SMD assembly today as I planned, as I can't sit at the desk for a longer time.. hope that it gets better during the weekend.
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@tbowmo Oh now that is sexy.. From someone with back problems, you take it easy for the next 3 days Sir!!
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Aahh.. I'm back in the man-cave. Been too long since I had a chance to power up the soldering irons..
Anyways, I've mounted the first of the second prototype spin, so next up is getting firmware written, and tested..
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@tbowmo: it looks very nice. I like the way you place components. I think I need to look more at your design and learn
With a firmware, it looks promising
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Thanks
I hope that I at least can get some LED's flashing tonight :). And then perhaps the bootloader programmed./ Thomas
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yeah
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A small update before I hit the bed tonight..
I've got radio up and running on the SAMD, and got the first message from one of my sensebender micros through to my pc.
It's still in debug mode, using a serial port on the samd as output (And my logic analyzer to decode the serial stream). So no ethernet / wifi or the like up yet.
The next step will be to have it use USB instead of the serial port..
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good work!
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Great! I will buy one of these as soon as this is working as you want
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Wow - excellent! I'd buy one
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a new small update..
Got it working as a serial GW.. Receiving the first messages from one of my sensebenders..
Also got the ethernet going, this is not integrated with the mysensors parts though, as I have to refactor nrf / ethernet libraries a bit, in order to support multiple (HW) SPI interfaces..
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@tbowmo said:
Got it working as a serial GW.. Receiving the first messages from one of my sensebenders..
Also got the ethernet going, this is not integrated with the mysensors parts though, as I have to refactor nrf / ethernet libraries a bit, in order to support multiple (HW) SPI interfaces..
Sounds great. I'm definitely interested in using this as a gateway as well. Any chance you're going to add SPI transaction support to those libraries (more info in my post here)? I know there are RFM library versions that have that as well (see here).
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Here is more hw spi ports available on this beauty. So radio and ethernet is separated on their own spi bus. There is a 3rd spi bus available on the MYSX connector, that is at free disposal to the end user.
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Nice - I forgot that you upgraded and weren't using a 328 processor.
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A small Christmas progress update.
I got external eeprom, and w5100 module running now.
That means I have a working ethernet GW running with nrf24 running on SAMD.
I'm waiting for rfm69 modules from China before I can verify that this part also works as expected.
An ethernet GW with hw signing is using 35.988 bytes, or 13% of the available flash size, which is 256kbyte. So we have "plenty" of room to do other fun stuff on the GW
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I have updated the original posting, with updated hardware details.
- Removed the ESP8266 from the feature list (It's supporting the mysensors library native).
- Removed onboard SPI flash, but will probably add sdcard / micro sdcard reader
- Might add battery backup for an onboard RTC.. (the SAMD have an onboard RTC, only using 2-3uA in low power RTC keep alive mode)
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@tbowmo: I love your project , I can't wait to try your awesome baby GW
I agree with you with your updates too. RTC could be interesting.
Humm, when I see price and memory, I am very tempted to update one of my sensors board with atsamL21 family to give a try...do you have an advice for a good&cheap jtag programmer???
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I'm using an atmel jtagice3, with a custom PCB for converting from jtagice3 pinouts to standard cortex m0 debug connector. (have plans on selling this converter board elsewhere sometime in the future)
I got the jtagice3 5 years ago as a gift from atmel, for attending a course on their xmega series of MCU's. Don't know of any cheaper alternatives out there
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Hi. How far from finished is this gw? It looks awesome. My is acting fishy and I need to order a new one. I can wait some for this if you have some sort of eta.
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oki, thx
I see for connectors..I will look if I can find a cheaper "working" alternative for atsam...
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My best guess is that this will probably be end Q1 2016, as I have to verify RFM69, and probably have a second look at some kind of battery backup for RTC, and sdcard reader. (I have a sdcard reader breakout board, so I should be able to verify that part relatively quickly)
We have also discussed this briefly in the "core team" we would like to have the next revision of the library out first, because support for the GW is only in development branch at the moment. So to minimize confusion on what branch to use for the board, we would like to have an official release that supports the board.
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@tbowmo Ok thanks for a quick reply - looking forward to your gw! I will buy me a new gateway from ebay to secure my HA, but when you needs beta tester let me know as i already use dev.
