Where did everyone go?
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yes, that's the point: who is the user? And than focus on how to satisfy the user ;-)
I do not think that it is wrong or less valueable to set up an easy to use software that every dummy-youtuber can describe in a 5minutes clip.
Let me compare again with the development on the controller side.
When i started to search for home automation FHEM was very famous as one example. Such a strong system. It has been the first possibility to handle the different devices. If you have been able to get something work after hours of searching through the forum and editing various config files, it felt so cool, you are a hacker. Not every newbie could do...
Now you find approaches which are so easy to use via a webinterface. You get ready to use packages for different linux distributions and find most devices in auto configuration. That is contamporary and sexy.In the end even the experts take it. Why not, they can spend the time in hacking on other cool stuff.
And of course in the background are still the cool hacker working on the code or developing extensions ;-) but the user just uses it and does not be able to program.
Because so many user use it also more pro's work on it and because the youtuber can get 10 minutes fame even more user use it and so on and so.. -
I suppose the abundance of similar but non-identical mysensor solutions might cause people to wonder which one to build. I say that, having recently moved from Windows over to Linux, where there is a similar hyper-abundance of distros to sort through before picking one.
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To me it is a lack of time. Still have tons of projects not finished. Right now really focused more on making the whole eco system Usable. As far as I can tell not one single HA system is usable for a mere mortal. It's either centered around a mobile phone, which is a no-no for me. It's not reliable in terms of battery can be low while you want to turn something on or off and the screen is too small for eco systems that cover an entire house. And when they're not centered around a mobile phone everything is glued together with scripts. It's all too complicated. I think I can make it more simple xd
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To me it is a lack of time. Still have tons of projects not finished. Right now really focused more on making the whole eco system Usable. As far as I can tell not one single HA system is usable for a mere mortal. It's either centered around a mobile phone, which is a no-no for me. It's not reliable in terms of battery can be low while you want to turn something on or off and the screen is too small for eco systems that cover an entire house. And when they're not centered around a mobile phone everything is glued together with scripts. It's all too complicated. I think I can make it more simple xd
@TheoL Yes,, it's strange how home automation can get so complicated when it seems like it should be easy. I happen to think this is where mysensors has the upper hand, because if you can imagine the solution, then you can program it with real programming languages. Ultimately, with systems that are "dumbed down" and meant to be simple, you end up fighting with the limitations of whatever simplifying framework is used to make it simple, and, ironically, all the workarounds make it complex. With those you either have to settle for less than what you wanted, or else you end up with an unwieldy system because it lacks the expressive power to easily capture what you want.
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@TheoL Yes,, it's strange how home automation can get so complicated when it seems like it should be easy. I happen to think this is where mysensors has the upper hand, because if you can imagine the solution, then you can program it with real programming languages. Ultimately, with systems that are "dumbed down" and meant to be simple, you end up fighting with the limitations of whatever simplifying framework is used to make it simple, and, ironically, all the workarounds make it complex. With those you either have to settle for less than what you wanted, or else you end up with an unwieldy system because it lacks the expressive power to easily capture what you want.
@NeverDie I'm actually looking for a team backend and frontend to help me reinvent home automation. And give it back to all people, not only the technical ones. I've done quiet a lot of pocs to test me ideas. Preferably Python back end, so I can do some help in coding xd
Current HA systems are difficult. In comparison to the real world, it means that when you want to change a light bulb, you have to completely rewire the fixture in which the lightbulb you wanted to replace was in.
I think it's too complicated ^^
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@NeverDie I'm actually looking for a team backend and frontend to help me reinvent home automation. And give it back to all people, not only the technical ones. I've done quiet a lot of pocs to test me ideas. Preferably Python back end, so I can do some help in coding xd
Current HA systems are difficult. In comparison to the real world, it means that when you want to change a light bulb, you have to completely rewire the fixture in which the lightbulb you wanted to replace was in.
I think it's too complicated ^^
@TheoL If you're serious about it, I suggest you start a thread by laying out your ideas in the opening post and explain why your new approach is fundamentally better than whatever the existing alternatives are. If people agree with you, then you will have started a movement, and if they don't,... well, better to know that sooner rather than later, right?
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@TheoL Yes,, it's strange how home automation can get so complicated when it seems like it should be easy. I happen to think this is where mysensors has the upper hand, because if you can imagine the solution, then you can program it with real programming languages. Ultimately, with systems that are "dumbed down" and meant to be simple, you end up fighting with the limitations of whatever simplifying framework is used to make it simple, and, ironically, all the workarounds make it complex. With those you either have to settle for less than what you wanted, or else you end up with an unwieldy system because it lacks the expressive power to easily capture what you want.
@NeverDie said in Where did everyone go?:
it's strange how home automation can get so complicated when it seems like it should be easy.
I think that's a wrong idea. Automation can not be simple, otherwise it would be made automated from the beginning. The key feature of any automation is to set it up once and then gain the benefits of not doing something again and again, it's basically investing. Why would you expect to gain much, with little investment?
It may be that the field of private home and appliances is wrong for the concept of automation, because automating basic home is not going to produce much benefits in the end, so you either over-invest in terms of money or time, or get very simple system that isn't an automation in it's best meaning. -
@NeverDie said in Where did everyone go?:
it's strange how home automation can get so complicated when it seems like it should be easy.
I think that's a wrong idea. Automation can not be simple, otherwise it would be made automated from the beginning. The key feature of any automation is to set it up once and then gain the benefits of not doing something again and again, it's basically investing. Why would you expect to gain much, with little investment?
It may be that the field of private home and appliances is wrong for the concept of automation, because automating basic home is not going to produce much benefits in the end, so you either over-invest in terms of money or time, or get very simple system that isn't an automation in it's best meaning.@monte As a UX designer I dare to differ. HA anno 2021 is overly complicated. No one needs to know how to wire a light fixture. You just change the light bulb when it's broken. Or if in some cases hire an electrician.
I believe I can design things much much simpler. And make it usable.
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@monte As a UX designer I dare to differ. HA anno 2021 is overly complicated. No one needs to know how to wire a light fixture. You just change the light bulb when it's broken. Or if in some cases hire an electrician.
I believe I can design things much much simpler. And make it usable.
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@TheoL you can buy philips or ikea zigbee bulbs and not change any wiring. That has some limitation and stability problems though, that's why serious automations require proper wiring and project development.
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@monte We must have a conversation in a chat or something. to me Ikea is not usable at all. Usable meaning effictive, efficient and looking good.
@TheoL I am just saying from my experience. At one place I use KNX where it was prewired according to a plan, mysensors and ikea in places that where added after the wiring and walls were finished. I have had issues with Ikea bulbs disconnecting and needing repairing with hub, but in the end it is viable solution if you can't change wiring. I also tried Z-wave and it was much more expensive and worse. For zigbee there are opensourse projects that may work better then proprietary hub, but I didn't bother to try them yet.
But anyway, if you want everything to work reliably and be failproof you should plan everything ahead and know what you are doing and how. And I don't think that it's something particularly bad. Someone has to do work to achieve something great. It either you, or someone who you are paying either with money, or other things like your privacy, for example.
And I am not saying, that this will never change, technology is evolving and becoming more robust and sophisticated, I just don't see it changing drastically in nearest future.
Anyway, if you're going to achieve what you are envisioning, I will be happy for those people who will open wonders of home automation for themselves without doing any research. -
Hi Everyone,
I initially started with a goal and MySensors suited, and was very approachable. I built it and it still works. I didn't need much help.
I had a bunch of fun getting things to work and acquired some skills. The work with MySensors helped me get a job as an embedded software engineer, with my environmental sciences i.e. data analysis background.
Since getting that job, I have moved much more towards minimalism in my private life. As such I am designing simple systems that don't need automating, and asking myself what I need. My current focus during my spare time on ultralight winter backpacking/skitouring as well as vipassana meditation helps me see more clearly what is necessary to be happy. My insight does not bode well for most of current IoT use.
I may make some noise when I have decided that a certain thing is necessary AND I need help OR if I dare to show off ;). Meanwhile, enjoy the peace and quiet.
I think when I do get back into MySensors, it will be when I combine my statistics and firmware knowledge: so-called embedded AI applied to inventory management. That is also the solution to truly devalue a cloud connection, in my opinion. Do the work locally (or on your gateway), and say something, if necessary. We'll see if that tendency/thought makes sense in a few years.
I will also revisit MySensors when I want to build an energy harvesting sensor. This is somewhat proximate. I am not a big fan of batteries.
Thank you for the support and the handy framework. I am grateful for the simple systems that work, and keep working.
Going outside now :).
Kind regards,
Brian -
Let's dig out this thread a little. I am a person who's started my own MySensors based hardware project (GetWired, I wrote about it somewhere on this forum), so I probably can be described as an involved user. Somehow it happened that I haven't become an active user on this forum, on one hand I didn't have to write here, because all problems I've encountered were described earlier. On the other hand, I didn't receive much interest after publishing anything (openhardware designs, project related posts).
In my opinion, MySensors with nRF24 has very strong competition, especially taking into consideration the low reliability of this radio. It's easier and better to buy cheap Shelly or other Sonoff. Using nRF52 would help a lot, but it is much more complicated, at least in my opinion.
Second thing is the development of MySensors has slowed down a lot (last commit March 20th). If so, there is not much to discuss here.
Third thing is connected to the development of my own project. Me and my colleague managed to put it on a successful crowdfunding and build a community elsewhere. All this with no support from this community and especially from the MySensors "authorities". I don't want to complain, I just think such initiatives could meet with higher interest from everyone involved in the development of MySensors, because it would be mutually beneficial.
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Let's dig out this thread a little. I am a person who's started my own MySensors based hardware project (GetWired, I wrote about it somewhere on this forum), so I probably can be described as an involved user. Somehow it happened that I haven't become an active user on this forum, on one hand I didn't have to write here, because all problems I've encountered were described earlier. On the other hand, I didn't receive much interest after publishing anything (openhardware designs, project related posts).
In my opinion, MySensors with nRF24 has very strong competition, especially taking into consideration the low reliability of this radio. It's easier and better to buy cheap Shelly or other Sonoff. Using nRF52 would help a lot, but it is much more complicated, at least in my opinion.
Second thing is the development of MySensors has slowed down a lot (last commit March 20th). If so, there is not much to discuss here.
Third thing is connected to the development of my own project. Me and my colleague managed to put it on a successful crowdfunding and build a community elsewhere. All this with no support from this community and especially from the MySensors "authorities". I don't want to complain, I just think such initiatives could meet with higher interest from everyone involved in the development of MySensors, because it would be mutually beneficial.
@feanor-anglin said in Where did everyone go?:
I just think such initiatives could meet with higher interest from everyone involved in the development of MySensors, because it would be mutually beneficial.
This is the first I've heard of your project, but I have no idea where it is. Maybe post a link to it? If you already have in some other thread, the problem is that not everyone reads every thread or tracks every post.
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@feanor-anglin said in Where did everyone go?:
I just think such initiatives could meet with higher interest from everyone involved in the development of MySensors, because it would be mutually beneficial.
This is the first I've heard of your project, but I have no idea where it is. Maybe post a link to it? If you already have in some other thread, the problem is that not everyone reads every thread or tracks every post.
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@feanor-anglin it really looks very interesting to me. And if I'd renovate my house or bought a new house. I'd go for wired for sure. I'm running my sensors with NRF24L01+ for over 7 years now. And I actually didn't notice any problem. It's very reliable, but I admit the radio is very picky on it's power. Most problems I ran into where all power related.
Why I've been absent for a long time has several personal reasons. I needed to finish a study I was following next to my job. And after I finished it I had some health issues. And when I decided to get back into it. My dad passed away. We're now cleaning out his workshop, he earned his living as an electronics repair man. I'm keeping the stuff I can use, like the Fluke meters - although they are 20 years old they still work good - his lab power supply and stuff like that. It's also to moment to redo my own workshop. Because the organization was completely lost. I ordered a lot of parts the last years but never took the time to store them.
So hopefully this will al be done and I can finally finish some of the projects that are laying on my desk for years
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Hello everyone,
(this is my point of view, highlighting MySensor pro's)I recently started with home automation, even though I have been tinkering with Arduino, STM32, etc for a while.
(As many have said) I am also one that do not like the unknown software running in a device connected to WiFi (MySensor Pro's). I also don't like to depend too much in companies that decide to discontinue a device (MySensor Pro's).
I considered the use of MySensor but in the end I went the Zigbee route using Zigbee2MQTT and ZHA under Home Assistant. After a while, I fully migrated to Z2M.
Currently, I am designing devices based on the ESP8266/ESP32 family, which I control (MySensor Pro's).Why didn't I chose MySensors?
Like ZHA, it required another bridge and a separate "network". I want to reach every corner of the house, so the more devices are on the same mesh, the better.In my perfect imaginary world, MySensors runs along ZigBee, talks to Z2M, and plays nicely with commercial options. (I know it is a lot of work).
Remember, I started last year, when there were other options. If I tried to do HA a few years before, I am pretty sure MySensors would have been my choice. I still have the nRF24 little modems around from when I was looking to the right solution.
MySensors developed a fully functional alternative to ZigBee, but Zigbee was standardized and gained traction.Thank you for your work.
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Hello everyone,
(this is my point of view, highlighting MySensor pro's)I recently started with home automation, even though I have been tinkering with Arduino, STM32, etc for a while.
(As many have said) I am also one that do not like the unknown software running in a device connected to WiFi (MySensor Pro's). I also don't like to depend too much in companies that decide to discontinue a device (MySensor Pro's).
I considered the use of MySensor but in the end I went the Zigbee route using Zigbee2MQTT and ZHA under Home Assistant. After a while, I fully migrated to Z2M.
Currently, I am designing devices based on the ESP8266/ESP32 family, which I control (MySensor Pro's).Why didn't I chose MySensors?
Like ZHA, it required another bridge and a separate "network". I want to reach every corner of the house, so the more devices are on the same mesh, the better.In my perfect imaginary world, MySensors runs along ZigBee, talks to Z2M, and plays nicely with commercial options. (I know it is a lot of work).
Remember, I started last year, when there were other options. If I tried to do HA a few years before, I am pretty sure MySensors would have been my choice. I still have the nRF24 little modems around from when I was looking to the right solution.
MySensors developed a fully functional alternative to ZigBee, but Zigbee was standardized and gained traction.Thank you for your work.
@chbarg In all honesty, I think ZigBee is much older than mySensors. It's a pretty old standard. But it was very expensive to use, but since Philips and Ikea used it in their smart lightning it has become very cheap. Zigbee is used in commercial products, whereas my Sensors is just a nice and - more reliable - option for those who like to build their own stuff. I say more reliable, because the Ikea stuff I use is not always available. At least I have troubles with it. Also the batteries in the remotes drain really fast. Specially when attached to the gateway and night directly to a device
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@chbarg In all honesty, I think ZigBee is much older than mySensors. It's a pretty old standard. But it was very expensive to use, but since Philips and Ikea used it in their smart lightning it has become very cheap. Zigbee is used in commercial products, whereas my Sensors is just a nice and - more reliable - option for those who like to build their own stuff. I say more reliable, because the Ikea stuff I use is not always available. At least I have troubles with it. Also the batteries in the remotes drain really fast. Specially when attached to the gateway and night directly to a device
@TheoL I do agree with your experience with the Ikea remote. I also have them connected to the coordinator and are draining quite quickly.
Many manufacturers still charge a lot for Zigbee devices.
Making your own Zigbee devices require a lot of learning. I have tried and failed (not as much dedication as it needed). The WiFi route seemed closer since I already had the network setup.
Convenience and mesh availability won in my case.
Is Thread a future possibility for MySensors?Again, talking from my very individual situation. I can see running over someone else's mesh would make MySensors a more attractive option.
