Most reliable "best" radio

[Larson]

@alphaHotel said in Most reliable "best" radio:

UPDATE:

I've created a Github repo for my version of the nRF24L01 adapter board.

Thanks for the version. I have made a few tweaks to your version. I don't have an openhardware account, yet, but will make one when I have the time. In the meanwhile below are the pictures of my changes. In words:

• I shrank the frame of the board to minimize the interference with the TestPlatform neighboring pins
• rerouted two traces to make the ground plane cleaner
• moved some components as needed
  

[NeverDie]

@alphaHotel said in Most reliable "best" radio:

@NeverDie said in Most reliable "best" radio:

I've looked for tiny piezo's that could maybe do this, but they all seem to be different degrees of large. I know it should be possible to be tiny, becaue, for example, a digital wristwatch is able to make audible beeps. On the other hand, after looking at some teardowns, I guess digital watches uses piezo disks that are at least 1/2" in diameter. Hmmmm.... Is that really as small as it gets? Anyone here know? What about hearing aids? Surely they have something smaller. The smallest thing I've found so far has been this: https://owolff.com/page140.aspx?recordid140=534&output=pdf&delay=3000&margin=1cm which is 5mm in diameter. So, I guess forget mounting anything directly to the PCB board: wired discs are the way it's done apparently and then just tuck it somewhere inside the project enclosure.

I found these recently: https://www.cuidevices.com/micro-buzzers. Digikey seems to carry them but the smallest was listed as "0 quantity in stock" (https://www.digikey.ca/en/product-highlight/c/cui/micro-buzzers). The 4mm square version was available but of course that's just my local digikey, YMMV.

Adafruit's Clue device uses the KLJ-5030, which is 5mmx5mmx3mm: https://www.aliexpress.com/item/2251832675250640.html?spm=a2g0o.productlist.0.0.4ef473807sKXlG&algo_pvid=a8ed0732-081a-414b-8b9a-5745c9f7e7ff&algo_exp_id=a8ed0732-081a-414b-8b9a-5745c9f7e7ff-1&pdp_ext_f={"sku_id"%3A"65468584514"}&pdp_npi=2%40dis!USD!!47.0!47.0!!!!%402101e9d016559352842771526eafc4!65468584514!sea

At higher cost I notice that there also exists a KLJ-4020, which is 4mmx4mmx2mm: https://www.aliexpress.com/item/2251832613970385.html?spm=a2g0o.detail.1000060.1.58582227hEwQ40&gps-id=pcDetailBottomMoreThisSeller&scm=1007.13339.274681.0&scm_id=1007.13339.274681.0&scm-url=1007.13339.274681.0&pvid=6e57d5b5-3669-4301-96cd-4254603eb5f8&_t=gps-id:pcDetailBottomMoreThisSeller,scm-url:1007.13339.274681.0,pvid:6e57d5b5-3669-4301-96cd-4254603eb5f8,tpp_buckets:668%232846%238110%231995&pdp_ext_f={"sku_id"%3A"66402727672"%2C"sceneId"%3A"3339"}&pdp_npi=2%40dis!USD!!13.0!13.0!!!!%40210323b116559355333711431e5503!66402727672!rec

[alphaHotel]

@NeverDie said in Most reliable "best" radio:

Adafruit's Clue device uses the KLJ-5030, which is 5mmx5mmx3mm:
At higher cost I notice that there also exists a KLJ-4020, which is 4mmx4mmx2mm

Yikes! :flushed: Watch out for those shipping costs. Check my math, 4mm x 4mm x 2mm x 20 pcs = 640 cubic mm = 0.640 cubic cm = 0.0391 cubic inches, from China for $72 shipping? They must weigh a ton (or a tonne). LOL! :joy:

Seriously though, good find! I think I'll keep shopping around for a better price though. :grinning:

[alphaHotel]

@Larson said in Most reliable "best" radio:

I shrank the frame of the board to minimize the interference with the TestPlatform neighboring pins

Nice! How wide is that VCC trace/plane at its narrowest point now?

If you got it from Github, are you able to send me a pull request?

[NeverDie]

@alphaHotel said in Most reliable "best" radio:

@NeverDie said in Most reliable "best" radio:

Adafruit's Clue device uses the KLJ-5030, which is 5mmx5mmx3mm:
At higher cost I notice that there also exists a KLJ-4020, which is 4mmx4mmx2mm

Yikes! :flushed: Watch out for those shipping costs. Check my math, 4mm x 4mm x 2mm x 20 pcs = 640 cubic mm = 0.640 cubic cm = 0.0391 cubic inches, from China for $72 shipping? They must weigh a ton (or a tonne). LOL! :joy:

Seriously though, good find! I think I'll keep shopping around for a better price though. :grinning:

Yeah, the price is awful. I only linked it as an example. Looking a bit harder, I see they can be had for $1.53 each from a more reliable source: https://www.lcsc.com/product-detail/Buzzers_KELIKING-KLJ-4020_C556936.html The other thing to be wary regarding it is that the manufactures website says is only audible within a 0.5 to 1m range, which, if true, would be pathetically weak.

So, it has me thinking "close but no cigar."

In comparison, having heard it myself, the KLJ-5030 is reasonably loud I would say.

[NeverDie]

Looks as though FUET has some good low-priced alternative buzzers:

It must be something about the physics of buzzers that the thinnner they get in these small packages, the quieter they are.

[Larson]

@alphaHotel said in Most reliable "best" radio:

Nice! How wide is that VCC trace/plane at its narrowest point now?

KiCad tells me the narrowest VCC trace is about 0.045" (1.1 mm). I think the conventional 0.5 oz. copper is the common underlayment thickness. Is it too narrow? The return path is much narrower (Pin 1 nRF24L01). Does that matter?

@alphaHotel said in Most reliable "best" radio:

If you got it from Github, are you able to send me a pull request?

Yes, I think I got your version from Github. I will learn how to send a pull request. Cool, so this is how collaboration works? I'm new to this.

[Larson]

@NeverDie said in Most reliable "best" radio:

It must be something about the physics of buzzers that the thinnner they get in these small packages, the quieter they are.

I'm thinking of speakers of the 1970's: the drivers, midrange and tweeters would be nothing without the cabinet boxes. Does that apply here? In the 2010's these "soundbars" come into the picture. But there is still a box involved. Yes, it is probably about the physics of sonics... I'm thinking.

[alphaHotel]

@Larson said in Most reliable "best" radio:

Yes, I think I got your version from Github. I will learn how to send a pull request. Cool, so this is how collaboration works? I'm new to this.

Please don't add to your personal learning curve to create a pull request. It's not that important, at all.

[NeverDie]

@NeverDie said in Most reliable "best" radio:

This is what I came up with for a platform that has both pluggable MCU's and pluggable radios:

It's a bit wider than the previous test platform to give enough space between both the two AA batteries themselves and between those batteries and the pin headers. It also has a separate row of pins along the outside in case you want to have any shields that go on top. I did away with the switch entirely. Now if you want to power it off, you just remove a battery. So, doing all that renders the backplane/power-source very simple. Also, I included two mounting holes so that the whole thing can be mounted inside a project box. Yesterday I ordered this PCB along with a pluggable atmega328p MCU board and a pluggable radio board from a fab, so nothing physical to show-and-tell just yet.

In terms of having "plugable" compute modules, I'm thinking that maybe edge connectors might be a good way to go. I say that because I've lately been looking at expansion slots for the Adafruit CLUE, which has a similar pinout to the BBC micro:bit. Even though those modules have only a little more than 20 pins to expose, some of the edge connectors on the market that are compatible with them can support as many as 80 pins! For a plugable compute module, the more pinouts the better. That way, if you need access to a lot more pins, you would simply plug the same compute module into a backplane that gives you access to a lot more pins to, for example, directly drive an LCD display instead of having to do it all (more slowly) using an SPI interface.

Well, that's all I've learned so far. I guess in the absence of any better ideas, maybe picking one of those 80 pin edge connectors that's compatible with micro:bit would perhaps be a worthwhile experiment to build a plugable backplane around. Especially for mcu's that come with a switchable fabric that can re-assign which logical pins are assigned to which physical pins, it would perhaps open up a lot of options for exploiting much more capable MCU's while still keeping the real estate small.

Here's an example of one of those 80 pin edge connectors that's micro:bit compatible: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B08HS27D51/ref=ox_sc_saved_title_3?smid=A22NPL1KB8AOV0&psc=1

as well as a PCB showing how it is wired for a micro:bit:

As you can see, lots of room to grow! The downside is that it's not small. Maybe an edge connector that's half as long would work well enough (though obviously sacrifice micro:bit compatability) and still keep things small. If there were a smaller, much higher connection density connector, that would obviously be better. Maybe @Larson 's idea of using zebra strips as connectors is more practical. Not sure. I suppose in a way the little aliexpress modules, with their array of contacts on the back of their little PCB's, are a type of connector, just not a plugable/unplugable one.Anyhow, I don't have the time to pursue it further at this juncture, so those are just some notes to either future self or to anyone who might want to tackle it.

[NeverDie]

I was thinking of trying out the nRF52805, but it turns out making the nRF5 jump now isn't much easier than it was 5 years ago when I last looked into the nRF52 series. The main improvement in the interim is that certain popular chips, like the nRF52840 are now better supported, because they are baked into things like the Adafruit CLUE and have at least some familiar Arduino support.

[Larson]

@NeverDie said in Most reliable "best" radio:

Maybe @Larson 's idea of using zebra strips as connectors is more practical.

I learned about zebra strips from you - thank you very much. I was unable to re-establish connections for an existing commercial products and I don't know why. My thought was that zebra strips were some technology and complex signaling that is beyond my capacity. The device is probably over 20 years old. Therefore, I would not recommend zebra strips because I don't know enough about them.

This pic from your link is more telling of the capability of your referenced connectors. For now, I don't know why these are called edge-connectors. I thought edge-connectors were flat male blades with double-sided contacts that were fitted in sloted female gaps. The ones I think I've seen have an index slot for, I suspected, polarity protection and alignment. Maybe I've got this all wrong and they are called something else - like card connectors.

[NeverDie]

@Larson said in Most reliable "best" radio:

don't know why these are called edge-connectors.

@Larson I think they're called edge connectors because they mate with the edge of a PCB.

[Larson]

@NeverDie Yes, I think we are surfing the same wave. I'm thinking of a PCB mount that will recieve a perpendicular PCB board with double sided connectors like this: https://www.ebay.com/itm/122943051785?hash=item1c9ffa1809:g:daAAAOSwd4tTxdNW

Maybe there is an application of these for the radio modules that have the single row SMD mounting pads? One would need to ignore the opposing connectors. Better yet, maybe there are radio boards (?) that could be designed to slot in... just thinking. The NRF24’s would require double-sided 1x4 board and receivers. That would be cool and compact.

But then there is the ground-plane to think about?

[Larson]

@NeverDie said in Most reliable "best" radio:

CORRECTION: Earlier I said that Adafruit's TPL5110 breakout board appeared to use a 1M pulldown resistor on DONE. I remeasured today and that's wrong. It's actually a 10K resistor.

Thanks for redirecting me to this thread. I think you were right on your original 1M Ohm assertion. Since I'm playing with my new TPL5110,s I took it on to make my own MM measurements. While my Harbor Freight MM might not be the most accurate instrument, I did show the resistance between DONE and GND to be 900 K'ish. Next, I got out the magnifying glass to spy the resistor in-line with said pins to have a marking of 1004. Google affirmed that that means 1 M ohm. So, your 5K, or 10K would be a big change – and if it comes at no cost for the quiescent current AND enables ESP action, then perfect!

[NeverDie]

@Larson said in Most reliable "best" radio:

@NeverDie said in Most reliable "best" radio:

CORRECTION: Earlier I said that Adafruit's TPL5110 breakout board appeared to use a 1M pulldown resistor on DONE. I remeasured today and that's wrong. It's actually a 10K resistor.

Thanks for redirecting me to this thread. I think you were right on your original 1M Ohm assertion. Since I'm playing with my new TPL5110,s I took it on to make my own MM measurements. While my Harbor Freight MM might not be the most accurate instrument, I did show the resistance between DONE and GND to be 900 K'ish. Next, I got out the magnifying glass to spy the resistor in-line with said pins to have a marking of 1004. Google affirmed that that means 1 M ohm. So, your 5K, or 10K would be a big change – and if it comes at no cost for the quiescent current AND enables ESP action, then perfect!

I just now checked the adafruit schematic for the TPL5110, and you're right: it does show a 1 megaohm resistor. I guess I must have measured it wrong. https://github.com/adafruit/Adafruit-TPL5110-Power-Timer-Breakout-PCB

[NeverDie]

@NeverDie said in Most reliable "best" radio:

@alphaHotel said in Most reliable "best" radio:

E01-2G4M27D

I'm fairly certain the ones I ordered won't be arriving with antennas (as none were pictured in the aliexpress posting), but, no problem, I'll let you know for sure after they arrive. Most likely if you have an old wi-fi router that you no longer use, you could probably unscrew those antennas and use them, since they'd also be 2.4Ghz.

@alphaHotel Reporting back: I received them, and mine did not come with any antennas.

[alphaHotel]

@NeverDie said in Most reliable "best" radio:

@alphaHotel Reporting back: I received them, and mine did not come with any antennas.

That's as I expected too because of the lack of any photos in the listings. Thanks for confirming, it's good to know. I do have a handful lying around from old WiFi routers as you mentioned.

[NeverDie]

I've had success getting the nRF24L01 to listen once per second for packets at an average current drain for just the nRF24L01 of 5.35ua. Not bad! The snag I'm running into though is that the listen window, encompassing power-up of the nRF24L01 through Rx mode is 1.6ms. However, if I use the atmega328p to time that 1.6ms, it raises the average current drain to 45ua, which is worse than my keyfinder keyfob's current drain (about 30ua on average). So....I need to find some way to sleep the atmega328p for 1.6ms in order to keep the total current drain low. However, how to do that? The TPL5111 has a minimum period of 100ms, so that's out. The atmega328p's WDT has a minimum period of 16ms, so that's out too. Unfortunately, the atmega328p has no built-in RTC. Even if I were to add an external RTC, I don't know of any that would let me dial-in 1.6ms.

Presently I can think of only two solutions:

1. Add some kind of external oscillator and feed it to Timer2 in asymchronous timer mode while sleeping the atmega328p. However, I can't seem to find from the datasheet what the current drain of that configuration would be, so it seems like a shot in the dark.

2. or, possibly use a GPIO pin to charge up an external capacitor and somehow calibrate the charging time so that when the capacitor discharges via some RC time constant it triggers a falling edge interrupt on the atmega328p to wake it up from sleeping after 1.6ms (the sleep time begins after it charges the capacitor). I haven't tried this, but it might actually work. It would notionally be kinda/sorta similar to how one can use an atmega328p to charge up a capacitor in order to determine the capacitor's capacitance value: https://www.norwegiancreations.com/2019/08/using-a-simple-arduino-to-measure-capacitor-value/.

If anyone has any other ideas on how to sleep an atmega328p for 1.6ms, please do post.

[Edit: Regarding #1, I suppose I could try measuring the sleep current with external asynchronous mode engaged but nothing connected to it. If it's acceptably low, I could then hook up an ultra low current 32.768K external crystal at an additional 500na or so. Hopefully there's some way tot turn everything off on the atmega328p except for the asynchronous counter. I'm doubtful as to whether I can apply such fine grained control like that to one of the sleep states (POWER_SAVE MODE), but maybe....? Here's some reason to be hopeful:

Power-save: is similar to the power-down mode, but the Timer2 is still awake and could be operated via an external clock.
https://wolles-elektronikkiste.de/en/sleep-modes-and-power-management

Ugh. Except Timer2 is an 8 bit counter...., but that's OK: 1.6ms would be 53 ticks on a 32.768k oscillator, so at least that part should work if the mcu sets timer2 to overflow in 53 ticks and then go to sleep and if that overflow will trigger an interrupt to subsequently wake the mcu back up after 1.6ms.

Well, it's a plausible theory. Just need to test it!

Is it worth the effort though? Even if it worked, an nRF52 module would outperform this type of setup, would be more compact, would be easier/faster to assemble, and would (probably) be lower cost as well. Hmmmmm..... And the nRF53 will be even better hardware still, though the nRF53 does come with the extra overhead of an RTOS....]

[Larson]

@NeverDie

Strikethrough
[Would 15 mseconds be close enough?
#include <LowPower.h>
LowPower.powerDown(0, ADC_OFF, BOD_OFF); //0 gives SLEEP_15MS,] Strikethrough

[Edit - Sorry - on rereading is see the objective is 1.6 mS not 16 mS. I like your Timer suggestions - that is what they are for.]