@NeverDie said in Anyone using/tried the E28-2G4M27S 2.4Ghz LoRa SX1280 27dB module?:

ey'd have a different ISP, or, if not, can at least pass your traffic to someone else on the LoRaWAN who has a different ISP than you. If you were also running Amazon Sidewalk, then you'

@NeverDie. Thanks for your write-up. Before I lose my train of thought and go look at StuartsProjects I have to ask about the EasyEDA design: doesn't it make TX/RX much better with no groundplane around the antenna? I've just completed a 433 MHz project and found that I was better to get the TX side way off my groundplaned board. Also, I've noticed that other ESP8266 breakouts dutifully remove the groundplane from breakout boards that would be near the ESP's built-in PCB antenna.

I don't know much about radio's so can easily accept any comment for the better, or even ridicule. I've learned as much as I can about radios from Andreas Spiess. He would simply test the difference with a RF sensor.

@NeverDie said in Most reliable "best" radio:

would last... ready for it?.... 1,537 years!

Have you considered comedy as a profession? I love your postings. The self-discharge of the human is another limitation. Unless, of course, you have a couple of Methuselahs in your progeny and a good set of instructions. And I know you can write good ones.
Thanks for the post.

@NeverDie. Thanks for the comment. I'm not sure if I've got that ground-plane radio interferance thing right. Maybe there is a SMD socket thing in which a radio could be clipped so you don't have to commit a radio to the board to find out. I've not seen one but I've not looked. Maybe it is time to invent one with springs to receive castellated edges. A jig like that would also serve ESP8266's. I like the PTH sockets for this kind of experimentation.
The idea of sawing off the top just north of the TXEN/RXEN connections is good. Maybe you could do that after mounting so you could test before AND after. That would be definitive.
On the other hand a redesign and reorder from OSHPark can't be that much of a setback. I really enjoy their service. They happen to be less than 5 miles from my home - but they ship globally. Small world.
Let me know what you learn. I'll learn with you much as I have been doing with hundreds of your other posts - and I thank you.

@NeverDie Sorry to bother again... but I gotta say this Hartley traning video has been monumental. I always thought the world was divided into AC and DC. NOW, I think I get it: DC circuits flipping on and off at a SIGNAL frequency are actually AC just with a different voltage basis. The KEY, Hartley says, is that the energy is not in the trace, but in the field during the rise and fall of voltage. This is also helping me to finally understand inductance. WHY didn't they say this 40 years ago in school? Oh, perhaps I was sleeping as I did.
This is a breakthrough that may lead me to understanding antennae theory and a bunch of other stuff. I thank you for the introduction. I gotta go find this Hartley fellow to thank him.

@NeverDie said in Anyone using/tried the E28-2G4M27S 2.4Ghz LoRa SX1280 27dB module?:

Anyhow, if you find out anything more, I'd be interested.

Eric Bogatin, master and professor of signal integrity, gave this presentation at an Altuim conference. At about 42:00 he talks about 7 Habits of Good Design. This, again, has more to do with PCB design and not radio performance. I have a suspicion that several radio boards I designed failed not because of the transmitter, but because of bad PCB design. I can make a failed transmitter (whip antennae) board work by putting the 433 MHz transmitter on a 7" leash away from the board. Now that is a sign.

@ejlane - Thanks. I'm just now learning of the EMI/EMC testing required for commercial products and FCC requirements. While that exceeds the requirements and budget for my home projects, I do think that I might employ the pre EMI testing that one can do with a scope and probes. That may drive me back to school to learn scopes!

@ejlane & @NeverDie: Amazing technology that was available for $1 was … too hard to believe. Even $5 for a ProMini is pretty mind-blowing. Not that I buy commodities, I do buy these components a dozen at a time to save on shipping even when it is ‘free’. I laugh at myself when I spend a week of my time on a $2 chip and then wonder how I can rework it from a PCB (never worth the attempt). Compared to any other hobby or habit this radio-electronic stuff is cheaper than cooking top-ramen at home.
BTW, thanks for the radio discussion posted last week. I will read and learn later.

@NeverDie, Thanks again for all the blogging on this subject. If you have not yet ordered your custom low-noise PCB, I had one design idea. If you flip the ProMini orientation end over end most of the traces will be shorter, especially the RX/TX lines. I’ve not examined the code, but I’d think that the RX/TX connections have the most signal activity on the board, thus EMI potential. I like how you keep all the traces on one side. That should solve the interrupted ground-plane problem we learned from Rick Hartley above.

It is far more fun to roll-your-own. Alternatively, I was thinking … I just checked the Moteino breakout boards from Felix at LowerPowerLabs to see if those would work with your Ebyte radios: too bad, different pinout. I just bought a few Moteinos (915 mhz) boards to save myself from my low-quality solder jobs and shaky hands – only $13 but I have to add my own radio or spend another $7. Everything I've seen from LowPowerLabs has been high quality.

@NeverDie. You are way out there, man! Thanks to the references to the other boards made by you. What fantastic contributions to the maker market.
I suppose D20 and D21 are the same as PCINT6/XLTAL1 and PCINT7/XTAL2? I once reassigned RX and TX on an Attiny85 to RX and TX (edit: output functions) as I was pin limited. It took some doing, but that is the beauty of these multifunction pin assignments. The code, if I remember, had to be in the loop after a delay in the setup; that gave me a way to access the RX/TX pins again to reprogram if necessary. Maybe there are similar challenges with bypassing the crystal.
@samh. So you are setting power levels on the fly. Very clever.

@NeverDie: Yes, as you describe elswere, and taught me, the design trade-off parameters are frequency, bandwith, dwell time, bit transfer rate, power demand, and most importantly, range. I'm looking forward to your findings.

Regarding the low reciever current: don't know about the FOB's but I have found the transmitter power to be key. My design has the "always on" reciever connected to mains. so I don't worry about that power. But the battery-limited transmitter devices are brought to life and triggered by the signal pin of the SR501 sensors that is high enough, long enough to complete a transmission, or several. The HT12E (encoder) chip is connected to the SR501 pin is fired and sends the settings of the dip-switch pin hi/low settings that is recieved by the always-on HT12d (decoder) that the Atmega 328PU can understand. I think the HT devices are MCUs in a different form, like what I imagine a FPLC to be like... don't know for sure. Why do I drone on? Because of the HT12D and HT12E pariings are very specific and very low on power demand due to their design. When I built my configuration (6 years ago) I knew more than I do now. But I'm relearning more. Andreas Spiess, Great Scott, Big Clive, and YOU, explore this stuff extensively, and I thank you all.

In summary, my repeaters and base RX station are mains powered so I don't worry about power & batteries. The primary focus for conservation of batteries is on the TX/Motion devices. Everything downstream of TX is mains powered or can be suitably backed up in the short term.

@NeverDie Yes, you are correct: the HT12D datasheet indicates that multiple signals must be recieved before the enable pin is activated. I think the 'multiple' is a count of three and there is probably a preamble in advance of the main message of high/low settings. The transmitter, again I think, just keeps sending the message until the SR501 drops power (2 seconds on the minimum settings). I get alot of double hits because of this. Good to know about the noise and history. Thanks.

@NeverDie

Strikethrough
[Would 15 mseconds be close enough?
#include <LowPower.h>
LowPower.powerDown(0, ADC_OFF, BOD_OFF); //0 gives SLEEP_15MS,] Strikethrough

[Edit - Sorry - on rereading is see the objective is 1.6 mS not 16 mS. I like your Timer suggestions - that is what they are for.]

@NeverDie You have a point. The TPL is also simpler.

But bless the developer. Yes, I was trying to hype his product. I forgot to mention that doing this current test was really easy because this thing just worked... right out of the box (really, out of the anti-static bag.) Rarely have things work so quickly for me. Even the TPL required fumbling.

So if sleeping is the objective and timing isn't really important, then the TPL it is. But if configuration settings, Bluetooth, ADC, I2C, SPI and timing are relevant, then the Trigboard is the way to go.

@NeverDie Here is my report on the Kevin Darrah Trigboard (V8.1) as promised. Fundamentally, the power draw of this board is about as low as the TPL5110. His board ships with door monitoring firmware on it that is conducting some kind of polling every 320 mS, it appears. Between the polling the current draw is about 180 nA, per my PPKII. If one were to include the polling activity, then the average current is about 1.3 uA. A picture of this is below. If an alarm condition is achieved, the device makes an internet connection and broadcasts a message to third-party servers that will alert the user by phone/text/email. Of course, that takes time (between 2 to 3 seconds), and additional current.

If you have 30 minutes, Kevin has a start-up video that is very informative. He makes the point that this board consumes a small fraction of what smoke detectors use. While the PPKII shows that the Trigboard has an equivalent sleep current, the Trigboard delivers the monitoring function for additional, though modest, current. As before, I find value in comparing these tiny currents to the expected shelf-life burn rate that is orders of magnitude (at least one) higher.

This was my first exposure to ESP32’s. Kevin indicates that the performance of the ESP32 is better than the ESP8266. I like the idea of Bluetooth access for being able to configure devices, as Kevin shows, and for access to sensor data – especially in development & debugging. I have not reviewed his firmware that he generously has made available. His “Configurator” firmware looks to be a great example of how to build user menus to input variables. This looks like the new form of the older WiFi Manager libraries which have been very useful.

@NeverDie said in Most reliable "best" radio:

CORRECTION: Earlier I said that Adafruit's TPL5110 breakout board appeared to use a 1M pulldown resistor on DONE. I remeasured today and that's wrong. It's actually a 10K resistor.

Thanks for redirecting me to this thread. I think you were right on your original 1M Ohm assertion. Since I'm playing with my new TPL5110,s I took it on to make my own MM measurements. While my Harbor Freight MM might not be the most accurate instrument, I did show the resistance between DONE and GND to be 900 K'ish. Next, I got out the magnifying glass to spy the resistor in-line with said pins to have a marking of 1004. Google affirmed that that means 1 M ohm. So, your 5K, or 10K would be a big change – and if it comes at no cost for the quiescent current AND enables ESP action, then perfect!

From the MySensors forum entry:

@NeverDie said in Anyone using/tried the E28-2G4M27S 2.4Ghz LoRa SX1280 27dB module?:

Hmmmm... Something's wrong then with Adafruit's design if it's 20uA. The chip itself consumes only 35na according to its datasheet:
https://www.ti.com/lit/ds/symlink/tpl5110.pdf?ts=1652658923819&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com%2F

My TPL5110's arrived and I hooked one up to the PPKII to take a look. Remember that Adafruit advertised a disappointing OFF-state current of 20 uA. Fortunately, I have found this not to be the case. Instead, my PPKII shows the off state to be 120 nA; picture attached. The load I used was an LED hooked up to a resistor and the PPK is supplied with 3.3V. As earlier discussed, I’ll next dig out the TrigBoards that Kevin Darrah sent me to see how they do.

@NeverDie and
@alphaHotel

Thanks for the links. I'm going for the silver (Ag)! The little that I remember from physics is that silver has high conductivity and low melting point. Perfect. Too bad it is so expensive.

I have a few dental crowns that could be remelted and ...

@NeverDie Yes, I think we are surfing the same wave. I'm thinking of a PCB mount that will recieve a perpendicular PCB board with double sided connectors like this: https://www.ebay.com/itm/122943051785?hash=item1c9ffa1809:g:daAAAOSwd4tTxdNW

Maybe there is an application of these for the radio modules that have the single row SMD mounting pads? One would need to ignore the opposing connectors. Better yet, maybe there are radio boards (?) that could be designed to slot in... just thinking. The NRF24’s would require double-sided 1x4 board and receivers. That would be cool and compact.

But then there is the ground-plane to think about?

@NeverDie said in Most reliable "best" radio:

Maybe @Larson 's idea of using zebra strips as connectors is more practical.

I learned about zebra strips from you - thank you very much. I was unable to re-establish connections for an existing commercial products and I don't know why. My thought was that zebra strips were some technology and complex signaling that is beyond my capacity. The device is probably over 20 years old. Therefore, I would not recommend zebra strips because I don't know enough about them.

This pic from your link is more telling of the capability of your referenced connectors. For now, I don't know why these are called edge-connectors. I thought edge-connectors were flat male blades with double-sided contacts that were fitted in sloted female gaps. The ones I think I've seen have an index slot for, I suspected, polarity protection and alignment. Maybe I've got this all wrong and they are called something else - like card connectors.

@NeverDie said in Most reliable "best" radio:

It must be something about the physics of buzzers that the thinnner they get in these small packages, the quieter they are.

I'm thinking of speakers of the 1970's: the drivers, midrange and tweeters would be nothing without the cabinet boxes. Does that apply here? In the 2010's these "soundbars" come into the picture. But there is still a box involved. Yes, it is probably about the physics of sonics... I'm thinking.

@alphaHotel said in Most reliable "best" radio:

Nice! How wide is that VCC trace/plane at its narrowest point now?

KiCad tells me the narrowest VCC trace is about 0.045" (1.1 mm). I think the conventional 0.5 oz. copper is the common underlayment thickness. Is it too narrow? The return path is much narrower (Pin 1 nRF24L01). Does that matter?

@alphaHotel said in Most reliable "best" radio:

If you got it from Github, are you able to send me a pull request?

Yes, I think I got your version from Github. I will learn how to send a pull request. Cool, so this is how collaboration works? I'm new to this.