Started with MySensors and about to give up (some feedback)

[Sergio Rius]

@scalz After the "cleaning" there should be an example on each supported endpoint platform. I mean, if rj45+mqtt is supported, rfm should have a working example with all the components (level adjusters, etc...)

The big problem with rf24, said that it's so dependant on the environment, is that different countries have different regulations. And could be that what seems perfectly ok for some or all developers, doesn't work for other people in their houses.

Documentation doesn't say anything about checking country's wireless regulations as it's neglected.

[scalz]

@Sergio-Rius
sure these are good points. especially country regulations :+1:
That said this needs some research, personally I don't know rules for all countries & frequencies.
In that case, we should also mention that anyone making&selling his board/device with a rf module is maybe out of the rules without fcc/ce certifications. So many things to say on regulations, you're right.

The trickier point is docs for all possible usecases. There are so many different combo. I don't know if educating and covering "all" electronics possibilities, arduino coding, handling third parties libs etc, is the goal of a software framework here, I don't know exactly the original goals.

"If I was in charge and alone for all this work" (personal point of view), I would remove from howtos all things that I don't use, and would let this stuff live in the community hands, on the forum for example.
Like I said, supporting/maintaining/documenting stuff that you don't use, for free, in spare time, is pita.
Franlky, there are many platforms+mysensors that we don't even use. It has been added to the framework, mostly because it's fun to learn/discover new platforms etc, not because of an urgent need at home.

The problem is the more you show&provide, the more users may want and expect, whereas we hope it will be community driven.
It's like you provide for free young plants to someone, and he expects you'll always feed&water it :)

Unfortunately, regarding documenting the stuff I don't use, I've no time for the moment..busy on other projects, hobby in my spare time must be fun.

I hope we'll find a way to improve docs so it's 100% success each time someone new get started. Hopefully I think there are lot of people who already got success with MySensors and helping on the forum

[monte]

@alex28 said in Started with MySensors and about to give up (some feedback):

Problem 2. The Raspberry Pi gateway.

Yes you need to add overlay to /boot/config.txt to use both SPIs. I have working gateway which utilizes both SPI ports and works without issue.
So have you achieved working GW on raspberry?

@alex28 said in Started with MySensors and about to give up (some feedback):

Problem 3. NRF24 range is bad. Really bad.

I am using this NRF24 PA LNA module on my gateway and the cheapest NRF24 modules on my nodes. This works pretty good. I suggest you buy some good quality PA LNA module for your gateway as they require proper shielding and the cheap ones don't have it. CDEBYTE modules are considered to have original Nordic chips and has many good reviews on this forum. And yes, you need to ensure you have good power supplied to radios. Also 2.4GHz can be easily blocked by concrete or metal obstacles if it is placed closed to them, for example I have outdoor light node with concrete base, and I had to stick radio module above concrete part to achieve stable connection, same goes for metal enclosures and boxes. My GW is places in metal distribution box, so I mounted external antenna on its door to avoid shielding of a signal.

I understand your frustration, but you've chosen not the easiest or common way to begin with. Most people on this forum use standalone serial or ethernet gateway and don't bother connecting radio directly to Raspberry, that's why you had such a bad time finding correct answers to your problems. Good thing is that you seem to be close to a working result and have gain much experience and can make valuable contribution to this community.

Radio networks are flawed by design in my opinion, I've had hard time with commercial Zwave products, and community support wasn't great either, as that is proprietary protocol and you basically rely solely on manufacturer once you've bought a node for 50$ you almost on your own.

[mhkid]

@monte this is exactly the point. There is no mention or way to know you're choosing the hardest possible combo of hardware until you've spent hours fiddling with it. You'll find more posts about counterfeit radios rather than what a good radio is. There is saying that they don't teach treasury agents what every counterfeit bill looks like because there are too many and it's always changing. They teach them what a real bill looks like so they will know a fake when they see it. Same thing here. Just post the place to buy a good radio. Don't post a guide on rpi gw if it's the hardest and least used option, leave that to the forum.

I would rather spend my time building and using the sensors rather than troubleshooting and figuring out problems, which it seems like that's what I do a lot of. It could very well be the choices of hardware I'm making I'll completely admit that but I don't know because there are so many paths you can take. OTA updates are something I'd like to incorporate but there is no clear path to success there for me. I feel like that will lead to frustration based on what I've read in the forum. Again because there are too many options without the clear path laid out.

I keep coming back because I really see the potential and there really is no other platform like MySensors. If I had that strong reliable baseline to build from I'd have some pretty cool ideas and sensors to contribute.
Instead I'm building sensors with Wi-Fi connections all over the place when a single gw connecting to the internet or a controller would be a much better solution.

[mhkid]

@pptacek said in Started with MySensors and about to give up (some feedback):

jModule2

Do you have details on these sticks? What is jmodule2?

[monte]

@mhkid Well, I think tutorials must be updated and graded in terms of difficulty, that will ensure that newcomers will first build serial node based on arduino nano and only after having working network will try harder solutions.
That said, I believe that troubleshooting is the best way to learn new topic. Especially if you have helping community to come for an answer when you feel like you've come to a dead end.

[alex28]

@monte mhkid summed it up nicely. My entire point here was that there was no way to know that my choice of hardware was uncommon. The guide made it sound like this would be a perfectly valid and well supported choice. Yes, I have a functioning Pi based GW now, but the radio link is far too unreliable to make it useful. After considering all pros and cons, I decided to not proceed with MySensors at this point. The lockdown is over and I now have much less time to put into this. Instead I will try the Z-Uno, which seems more in line with my specific use case.

Still, I'm glad my feedback has spawned some discussion around this. Maybe it will help to improve MySensors in that respect. Maybe I'll come back to MySensors at some point too, because it is an interesting platform after all.

@monte said in Started with MySensors and about to give up (some feedback):

That said, I believe that troubleshooting is the best way to learn new topic. Especially if you have helping community to come for an answer when you feel like you've come to a dead end.

Well that depends. Stupid analogy : If you're a photographer and get a new camera, a nice customizable one that gives you lots of manual options to play around with, you would still expect it to work out of the box for simply taking some basic photos. If you have to take it apart entirely and start swapping out its internal components using trial and error, just to be able to use it for the one thing you ultimately got it for - taking photos - then you'd probably not be very happy.

[kiesel]

I hope it is OK to post this here, I am not sure how to add this to the documentation, but my biggest pain point when starting out was that you have to use mysensors >2.2 when running on a raspberry pi 4, but the rfm gateway code has a bug in versions bigger than 2.2. I spent more than a week debugging that until I found the github issue and settled for a serial gateway, which I am very happy with, thank you mysensors!

If a warning could be put on the gateway page that would be great!

[scalz]

Hello,
@mhkid @alex28
That's too bad that you never asked for help (except mhkid, one time) while you were so many times in a dead end.. some waste of time, I completely agree with you. Don't be shy :)
Actually I'm a dev too, high or low or blackbelt level doesn't matter, but what I know very well is that I like to fix problems by myself, I rarely ask for help too. But the truth is when someone can save me some time, my precious spare time, I'm always very glad to find him.

@alex28 that's good to hear that perhaps you found another framework which can fit your need. I really hope and wish you success, especially if it costs 50€ per devboard.

This is quite interesting actually, now I wonder about something..

To people:
if we would sell boards for 50€, eg on mainsite "Store" page, with MySensors howtos and high success rate, would you really buy it?
or would you still try to use what you have left in your drawers?

If so, it's maybe possible to make your dream become true.
Of course, high rate of success would only apply to these kits

Note: to any newcomer reading this topic, regarding the "don't know where to buy genuine nrf24", you can find links on mainsite, "Store page", for some recommended modules. And don't forget those decoupling capacitors ;)

[alex28]

@scalz said in Started with MySensors and about to give up (some feedback):

That's too bad that you never asked for help (except mhkid, one time) while you were so many times in a dead end.. some waste of time, I completely agree with you. Don't be shy :)

That's a personality thing. Documentation is very important to me. When I encounter a technical problem, on personal projects or on work projects alike, I will do extensive research in order to assess, understand the cause and eventually solve the problem. I will very rarely post a technical question on a forum. That's just the way I work. Then again, I did mention that this was purely a personal experience report :slightly_smiling_face: Different people have different approaches and will have different experiences.

@scalz said in Started with MySensors and about to give up (some feedback):

@alex28 that's good to hear that perhaps you found another framework which can fit your need. I really hope and wish you success, especially if it costs 50€ per devboard.

Thanks. You pay mostly the proprietary ASIC on it, the ZWave license/brand, but also compliance with pretty strict performance specifications on the HF/radio side. Let's see how it goes.

In fact, the cheaper component price was not the reason that made me consider MySensors in the first place. The open nature of the platform was. I'm perfectly fine with paying more for solid and reliable hardware. I think that is also an important point to keep in mind. As far as I see it, this open and community driven aspect is the greatest strength of MySensors. While the cheap component aspect is certainly important for many people, it can also lead to a lot of problems due to counterfeit low quality HW.

[mhkid]

@scalz not sure how to take the comment. I've posted and contributed (even developing a library) so it's not like I haven't participated. I bought parts from the links and still had issues with radios. Whether help was asked for or not that doesn't make the constructive feedback invalid. Feedback is a gift and in this case it should be taken that way. These are suggestions to make MySenors accessible to more people.

Yeah there is a good chance I would buy it. When I started my journey into home iot devices I was buying $45 light switches so if it was a good product I would.
I've looked at the MySensors gw but several of the comments mentioned issues so l steered clear. It's not the cost. What's being suggested here is not a huge criticism it's just asking to have a clear path to a high probability of success. Which is mainly cleaning up the documentation. If I had a solid working setup I'd help do it but I don't. I love the platform and the idea is really great, it's just too scattered and needs to be more focused. Don't try to be all things to all people.

[scalz]

@alex28 @mhkid
I just meant what I thought.
I like to find solution by myself too. Like you it's super rare that I ask for help. But, I'm also an impatient guy, very impatient, I hate being stuck during a rush etc. I always feel getting stuck more than one day is like wasting time and money, don't you think. Still it happened more than once to me, of course. That's funny I'm saying that, as I actually I'm working in research field :sweat_smile:

This is why I said you shouldn't have hesitated to ask community for help, lot of kind people here.

@alex28 said in Started with MySensors and about to give up (some feedback):

In fact, the cheaper component price was not the reason that made me consider MySensors in the first place. The open nature of the platform was. I'm perfectly fine with paying more for solid and reliable hardware. I think that is also an important point to keep in mind. As far as I see it, this open and community driven aspect is the greatest strength of MySensors. While the cheap component aspect is certainly important for many people, it can also lead to a lot of problems due to counterfeit low quality HW.

I completely agree, that's why I trusted in MySensors years ago.
And supporting low quality, and too many platform, is pita, especially when you just have very little spare time, all of that for free of course. That's why we trust in community to help us.

About my own xp, I got success the first time I got started with MySensors+rf24Serial gw.
But it was just a quick test, as my first goal was to use rfm69. No one told me rfm69 was superior to rf24, to me it just made sense.

I'm in favor of serial gw actually because I think it's :

• more "simple"
• secure. Just a serial connection. no tcp connection etc
• reliable. doesn't rely on an OS to run the network, and stronger against noise in radio which could be introduced by rpi for example, when power supply is not polished, filtered, decoupled etc. No one said that in the docs, I know, it's certainly missing infos. It's just, imo, from personal xp.

That said, we have heard your wish about improving docs, and providing hw with trusted howtos (we have some good hw designs, for gw or nodes, with variable bom cost).
Thank you for your feedbacks

[Psilin]

What an interesting thread this became. Over some time/years ago I tried to start with MySensors. Unfortunately I failed miserably because I tried it to combine with starting with Openhab, and connect mysensors by mqtt.

The Openhab route combined with Mysensors is still the route I want to go: combine the open architecture of Openhab to connect different vendor approaches added with the flexible way of MySensors.

To be complete: My background is a bachelor in Physics. So the basic programming and electronics may not be the real problem, although I am certainly not claiming to know everything.

To end up this post: in the next couple of weeks/months I have spare time to invest in the project. When I combine this with the things the topic starter ave addressed I have the following to offer to the Mysensors community:

“I am offering to write and give feedback of the guides and information found in the forum, to document at what point I am stuck with the given information. I hope the community can and will do something with this feedback. So long as I am not going to be completely stuck, I can and will be writing the feedback.”

Off coarse I need to know if the community is waiting for such an approach before I start to write.

My thoughts of devices to use in the network:

• mqtt gateway: wired based on cloned arduine with hat ethernet
• mqtt gateway based on wifi based esp8266 nodemcu board
• radio network: base the nrf24 version
• radio network: based on rfm69 for secure transmission (opening doors with nrf24 does not feel safe)
• repeaters as needed or extra gateways (3 story concrete house)
• sensors and actuators: starting with wallpowered, later adding battery powered

So, how does this approach sound to you all?

[wergeld]

@pptacek Had not seen those before. Order some and a few nanos to go with it. I had been using the slim node v2 AA battery boards using just the 328p bare chip. Issue I have with that board is the layout of the pins for my needs. It is a great board and I use the nodes I have a lot - no disrespect meant to the developer of it.

I agree that the entry ramp to get mysensors working is a bit complex. I started with the RPi as the gateway because well, it should work. Had a hell of a time making it function. Ended up getting the RPi hat that has the capacitor and NRF slot on it that plugs into the GPIO headers. But, issues persisted with the library for the RPi not working on the RPi 2 until some very helpful folks pointed me in the right direction. A lot of this is pure tinkering and not yet a prime time off the shelf system. I knew that going in and accepted. It has been a great learning experience. The frustration I initially had was all because I expected the guides/docs to be up to date. They are not. As bad as that is, once you accept it and decided to a) add to the docs yourself or b) carry on screaming it becomes rewarding. As an example, getting MySensors to work in Hom Assistant is easy using an MQTT gateway....until you realize that HA tells the nodes what measurment units to use and the nodes then flip (from Celsius to Fahrenheit) when you think it should do the conversion on the front end of HA. I still, for the life of me cannot get the nodes to flip back to Celsius from an MQTT command (had to reflash the nodes with the code).

At the end of all this I am still having fun and learning new things. As the OP said this is not my first programming rodeo (currently a senior SQL developer working with epic sized data with a massive helping of javascript, R, python, and .NET). The micro controller code paradigm was (is still?) new to me even after almost 6 years of messing around with various projects including MySensors.

If we can help any new people stay on this journey it is time well spent. I offer my services for any help that may be needed for docs or guides.

[monte]

@Psilin I suggest you look into Home Assistant instead of OpenHAB. It is much more flexible and easy to set up and I feel like it has better perspective in general.

[alowhum]

I'm far from objective since I'm behind the project, but I think the easiest way to get started with MySensors is to use Candle. I've given a lot or workshops with it now, and it's getting to be quite good.

• It uses Mozilla's WebThings Gateway, which is much more userfriendly than the other smart home controllers.
• It offers voice control for all mysensors abilities.
• The Candle Manager plugin allows you to upload code to Arduino's through a step by step wizard. It even allows you to make changes to the code in a wysiwyg manner. No need to install the Arduino IDE.

Perhaps the guide could point to it as an option for absolute beginners?

[Psilin]

@monte @alowhum : the choice I made for OpenHab was based on the open structure which allows connecting different vendor devices by the development of a glue layer, called bindings. A large pre for me is the support of my alarm system, so (in theory) I already have wired sensors that I can use at all my (external) doors and windows. I am really looking for a controller that will fit my needs, and grow with it.

I'm sure Home Assistant and/or Candle (never heard of it before) will also be fine for use with MySensors/MQTT. But is is like selecting a car: multiple vendors will bring you from A to B, most vendors will do the job at a decent speed and reliability. At the same time some people prefer a german car, other people prefer a French brand an so on. In a later post I will explain my selection of OpenHab more in depth.

@scalz @Yveaux @hek @kiesel You all 'voted' or 'liked' my post. So I guess this needs a decent follow up. At what place do you want me to document my struggles? In this thread, or a new thread ? And when a new thread has the advantage, please let me know in what section I should start it!

[Yveaux]

@Psilin we are currently discussing behind the scenes if/how we can let users edit the documentation pages. We'll come back to you as soon as things get more solid.

[alowhum]

Sounds great.

This all reminds me of this post I made when I started out with MySensors. That was about how a lot of the example code used out of date sensors.

[monte]

@Psilin I know about OpenHAB's bindings, I was going to build my system on it. But then I found HA and fell in love with it. HA has a huge number of integrations and you can always write your own too. But if you prefer java to python, then I can understand your choice.