Started with MySensors and about to give up (some feedback)

[alex28]

@scalz said in Started with MySensors and about to give up (some feedback):

That's too bad that you never asked for help (except mhkid, one time) while you were so many times in a dead end.. some waste of time, I completely agree with you. Don't be shy :)

That's a personality thing. Documentation is very important to me. When I encounter a technical problem, on personal projects or on work projects alike, I will do extensive research in order to assess, understand the cause and eventually solve the problem. I will very rarely post a technical question on a forum. That's just the way I work. Then again, I did mention that this was purely a personal experience report :slightly_smiling_face: Different people have different approaches and will have different experiences.

@scalz said in Started with MySensors and about to give up (some feedback):

@alex28 that's good to hear that perhaps you found another framework which can fit your need. I really hope and wish you success, especially if it costs 50€ per devboard.

Thanks. You pay mostly the proprietary ASIC on it, the ZWave license/brand, but also compliance with pretty strict performance specifications on the HF/radio side. Let's see how it goes.

In fact, the cheaper component price was not the reason that made me consider MySensors in the first place. The open nature of the platform was. I'm perfectly fine with paying more for solid and reliable hardware. I think that is also an important point to keep in mind. As far as I see it, this open and community driven aspect is the greatest strength of MySensors. While the cheap component aspect is certainly important for many people, it can also lead to a lot of problems due to counterfeit low quality HW.

[mhkid]

@scalz not sure how to take the comment. I've posted and contributed (even developing a library) so it's not like I haven't participated. I bought parts from the links and still had issues with radios. Whether help was asked for or not that doesn't make the constructive feedback invalid. Feedback is a gift and in this case it should be taken that way. These are suggestions to make MySenors accessible to more people.

Yeah there is a good chance I would buy it. When I started my journey into home iot devices I was buying $45 light switches so if it was a good product I would.
I've looked at the MySensors gw but several of the comments mentioned issues so l steered clear. It's not the cost. What's being suggested here is not a huge criticism it's just asking to have a clear path to a high probability of success. Which is mainly cleaning up the documentation. If I had a solid working setup I'd help do it but I don't. I love the platform and the idea is really great, it's just too scattered and needs to be more focused. Don't try to be all things to all people.

[scalz]

@alex28 @mhkid
I just meant what I thought.
I like to find solution by myself too. Like you it's super rare that I ask for help. But, I'm also an impatient guy, very impatient, I hate being stuck during a rush etc. I always feel getting stuck more than one day is like wasting time and money, don't you think. Still it happened more than once to me, of course. That's funny I'm saying that, as I actually I'm working in research field :sweat_smile:

This is why I said you shouldn't have hesitated to ask community for help, lot of kind people here.

@alex28 said in Started with MySensors and about to give up (some feedback):

In fact, the cheaper component price was not the reason that made me consider MySensors in the first place. The open nature of the platform was. I'm perfectly fine with paying more for solid and reliable hardware. I think that is also an important point to keep in mind. As far as I see it, this open and community driven aspect is the greatest strength of MySensors. While the cheap component aspect is certainly important for many people, it can also lead to a lot of problems due to counterfeit low quality HW.

I completely agree, that's why I trusted in MySensors years ago.
And supporting low quality, and too many platform, is pita, especially when you just have very little spare time, all of that for free of course. That's why we trust in community to help us.

About my own xp, I got success the first time I got started with MySensors+rf24Serial gw.
But it was just a quick test, as my first goal was to use rfm69. No one told me rfm69 was superior to rf24, to me it just made sense.

I'm in favor of serial gw actually because I think it's :

• more "simple"
• secure. Just a serial connection. no tcp connection etc
• reliable. doesn't rely on an OS to run the network, and stronger against noise in radio which could be introduced by rpi for example, when power supply is not polished, filtered, decoupled etc. No one said that in the docs, I know, it's certainly missing infos. It's just, imo, from personal xp.

That said, we have heard your wish about improving docs, and providing hw with trusted howtos (we have some good hw designs, for gw or nodes, with variable bom cost).
Thank you for your feedbacks

[Psilin]

What an interesting thread this became. Over some time/years ago I tried to start with MySensors. Unfortunately I failed miserably because I tried it to combine with starting with Openhab, and connect mysensors by mqtt.

The Openhab route combined with Mysensors is still the route I want to go: combine the open architecture of Openhab to connect different vendor approaches added with the flexible way of MySensors.

To be complete: My background is a bachelor in Physics. So the basic programming and electronics may not be the real problem, although I am certainly not claiming to know everything.

To end up this post: in the next couple of weeks/months I have spare time to invest in the project. When I combine this with the things the topic starter ave addressed I have the following to offer to the Mysensors community:

“I am offering to write and give feedback of the guides and information found in the forum, to document at what point I am stuck with the given information. I hope the community can and will do something with this feedback. So long as I am not going to be completely stuck, I can and will be writing the feedback.”

Off coarse I need to know if the community is waiting for such an approach before I start to write.

My thoughts of devices to use in the network:

• mqtt gateway: wired based on cloned arduine with hat ethernet
• mqtt gateway based on wifi based esp8266 nodemcu board
• radio network: base the nrf24 version
• radio network: based on rfm69 for secure transmission (opening doors with nrf24 does not feel safe)
• repeaters as needed or extra gateways (3 story concrete house)
• sensors and actuators: starting with wallpowered, later adding battery powered

So, how does this approach sound to you all?

[wergeld]

@pptacek Had not seen those before. Order some and a few nanos to go with it. I had been using the slim node v2 AA battery boards using just the 328p bare chip. Issue I have with that board is the layout of the pins for my needs. It is a great board and I use the nodes I have a lot - no disrespect meant to the developer of it.

I agree that the entry ramp to get mysensors working is a bit complex. I started with the RPi as the gateway because well, it should work. Had a hell of a time making it function. Ended up getting the RPi hat that has the capacitor and NRF slot on it that plugs into the GPIO headers. But, issues persisted with the library for the RPi not working on the RPi 2 until some very helpful folks pointed me in the right direction. A lot of this is pure tinkering and not yet a prime time off the shelf system. I knew that going in and accepted. It has been a great learning experience. The frustration I initially had was all because I expected the guides/docs to be up to date. They are not. As bad as that is, once you accept it and decided to a) add to the docs yourself or b) carry on screaming it becomes rewarding. As an example, getting MySensors to work in Hom Assistant is easy using an MQTT gateway....until you realize that HA tells the nodes what measurment units to use and the nodes then flip (from Celsius to Fahrenheit) when you think it should do the conversion on the front end of HA. I still, for the life of me cannot get the nodes to flip back to Celsius from an MQTT command (had to reflash the nodes with the code).

At the end of all this I am still having fun and learning new things. As the OP said this is not my first programming rodeo (currently a senior SQL developer working with epic sized data with a massive helping of javascript, R, python, and .NET). The micro controller code paradigm was (is still?) new to me even after almost 6 years of messing around with various projects including MySensors.

If we can help any new people stay on this journey it is time well spent. I offer my services for any help that may be needed for docs or guides.

[monte]

@Psilin I suggest you look into Home Assistant instead of OpenHAB. It is much more flexible and easy to set up and I feel like it has better perspective in general.

[alowhum]

I'm far from objective since I'm behind the project, but I think the easiest way to get started with MySensors is to use Candle. I've given a lot or workshops with it now, and it's getting to be quite good.

• It uses Mozilla's WebThings Gateway, which is much more userfriendly than the other smart home controllers.
• It offers voice control for all mysensors abilities.
• The Candle Manager plugin allows you to upload code to Arduino's through a step by step wizard. It even allows you to make changes to the code in a wysiwyg manner. No need to install the Arduino IDE.

Perhaps the guide could point to it as an option for absolute beginners?

[Psilin]

@monte @alowhum : the choice I made for OpenHab was based on the open structure which allows connecting different vendor devices by the development of a glue layer, called bindings. A large pre for me is the support of my alarm system, so (in theory) I already have wired sensors that I can use at all my (external) doors and windows. I am really looking for a controller that will fit my needs, and grow with it.

I'm sure Home Assistant and/or Candle (never heard of it before) will also be fine for use with MySensors/MQTT. But is is like selecting a car: multiple vendors will bring you from A to B, most vendors will do the job at a decent speed and reliability. At the same time some people prefer a german car, other people prefer a French brand an so on. In a later post I will explain my selection of OpenHab more in depth.

@scalz @Yveaux @hek @kiesel You all 'voted' or 'liked' my post. So I guess this needs a decent follow up. At what place do you want me to document my struggles? In this thread, or a new thread ? And when a new thread has the advantage, please let me know in what section I should start it!

[Yveaux]

@Psilin we are currently discussing behind the scenes if/how we can let users edit the documentation pages. We'll come back to you as soon as things get more solid.

[alowhum]

Sounds great.

This all reminds me of this post I made when I started out with MySensors. That was about how a lot of the example code used out of date sensors.

[monte]

@Psilin I know about OpenHAB's bindings, I was going to build my system on it. But then I found HA and fell in love with it. HA has a huge number of integrations and you can always write your own too. But if you prefer java to python, then I can understand your choice.

[GaryStofer]

For people who like a clean PCB sensor or serial gateway node based on Atmel 328P for battery or 5-12V operation check out the PCB I made here on https://oshpark.com/shared_projects/5RV25Fc0. It incorporates the voltage regulators , capacitors and connector to simply plug in a NRF24 module and be done with it. Soldering is required but not terribly difficult. I usually just depopulate an Arduino nano for most of the parts ...

[pptacek]

@mhkid here you go: https://www.openhardware.io/view/332/jModule2

I honestly use it for much more than MySensors.
I made myself a little RC transmitter/receiver ecosystem out of the "3.3V Pro Mini + jModule2 + NRF24L01+(PA+LNA)" sandwich.
I have about 4 RC transmitters (mostly made of PS2 analog controller + above) and a bunch of RC receivers (DRV8833 + above) for little boats, cars, robots, or whatnot. If you buy these at bulk, they are under $10 with driver for two motors, you can program them in any way you want and kids can have a lot of fun. And if they break/drown/burn few, I can whip another 5 in a couple of hours.

IMHO 3.3V Pro Mini + jModule2 + NRF24L01+(PA+LNA) + DRV8833 + 2xAA or 1S LiPo battery is very powerful combination, completely customizable, tiny and cheap.
I might make an Instructable for it or something.

[mhkid]

I think all the replies highlight the challenges / difficulties with what happens. You read the thread and there are at least 3 or 4 different thoughts on each element (GW HW configuration, PCB recommendations, node recommendations, controllers, mqtt vs not, etc.) If you're coming to this for the first time you just see a bunch of what people have done and so you have to blindly pick a direction. Which then can lead you down a rabbit hole.

All of that discussion is great and this is what should happen in a forum is to share experiences. The problem, again, is that there is no baseline to start from that gives you the initial nearly guaranteed path to success when you're starting out. It that existed then you could tweak and adjust, try more advanced configurations, and experiment from a working baseline. Right now when you ask a question like what GW hardware should I use, you get multiple answers back and there is no consensus or "standard" to refer to. This thread has gotten way OT IMO because it's evolved into "here's what worked for me."

For me personally if I had the working baseline then I could add features on as I had the need or wanted to experiment. The challenge is you are experimenting from the start and then you get frustrated because you run into barriers all the time. There is no baseline and there are so many variants that it's a little chaotic. My suggestion is to come up with the baseline (hardware for GW, type of transport, ONE suggested controller) The KISS approach (Keep It Simple, Stupid) , publish it, and then clearly document other avenues as variants or advanced config. That at to me doesn't seem all that big of an update. The information is there as far as building and config just organize it and be more clear on the best path to success.

Again, MySensors is a great platform. I want to use it and promote it, just need to have that clear pathway.

[mhkid]

@pptacek Great, thank you.

[Psilin]

@mhkid perhaps make together a base line and help each other this way?

[mhkid]

@Psilin sounds good to me.

[franz-unix]

Interesting topic!
I agree, the amount of time required to learn how to do the things is quite high and after a lot of research you will find that other people have had the same issue... so in the end you have just reinvented the wheel!

In any case I think that MySensors is a very good project and probably underrated respect to how good and useful it is for a maker that wants to build its own domotic sensor and actuators.

For the reasons above (and others), some times ago I have started the d-diot project:

• The hub (Raspberry Pi + d-diot board) implements, among the other things, two MySensors gateway (RFM69 868 Mhz + NRF24L01). All the software configuration steps are well documented in the dedicated section of the wiki.

• In general the software part is easy because all is preconfigured in the d-diot image. Just burn the iso image to an SD card and you will have Home Assistant and MySensors working and ready to go.

• 3d printable sensors and actuators and the relative PCBs and firmware are part of the project. All parts (hardware, firmware, 3d printable case) are open source

• In the wiki you will find the detailed build instructions (with pictures) for each device, so @mhkid and @Psilin maybe here you can find some useful information or a at least a good starting point for your nodes. In particular the Mini-BT-Pcb-328P is a general purpose and flexible board that could be useful for a lot of small (battery or USB powered) RFM69 or NRF24L01 nodes.

Now I'm in contact with PCBway, a PCB manufacturer that offers also soldering service, so If there are enough people interested, I think that it is possible to start thinking about the possibility to start a small production of some boards, maybe already assembled. In my opinion this will be helpful for other people.

Let me know... maybe we can start something :+1:

[TRS-80]

@alex28,

Feedback from new people is valuable! New people have a different perspective than those who have been here a long time, and have grown with the platform (or watched it grow up around them). We should never forget that, all of us. Personally, when I am learning some new software or something for the first time, I always try to give my fresh perspective as a new user (assuming it is F/LOSS; I absolutely refuse to commit a single ounce of my time/energy/money otherwise), help to update docs, or whatever (as much as possible).

Having said that, this is a tinkering platform. On the bell curve of HA stuff, we are at the far right; the smallest number of people and most difficult, requiring the most knowledge (short of making things from absolute scratch). This is not off the shelf, ready to go stuff. This is building your own custom sensors from modules and components, nearly from scratch.

If there is one thing I think we (as a community) can do better, it would be to make this more clear up front.

I just looked at my profile page, it says I joined "23 Mar 2016." I'm pretty sure I started reading / studying even before that. But right from the beginning, I fell in deeply in love with what I saw, even if the vast majority of it was all way beyond me at that point.

Actually now that I think about it, I have had interest in HA stuff since our first X-10 modules I remember playing with as a child to turn on the outside Christmas lights, and the electric "candle" in the garage... I thought that was just the coolest thing ever! :smiley:

Every so many years during my 20s and 30s, I would check back in on the HA situation again but it was always the same story: very over priced devices that could not talk to one another. Until I came across MySensors! We are actually living in wonderful times right now if you are a fledgling hacker; boatloads of information available on the Internet, inexpensive parts, and an explosion in Free / Libre Open Source Software (and increasingly, Hardware!).

Eventually I bought some parts, made a couple attempts, got some stuff working, but it was unreliable. I was in over my head. No time to spend on the stuff for months, years at a clip. But I kept reading, and reading...

I finally had my first real success with nRF24L01+ just a few days ago (I like to think I give some good tips in that post about initial radio setup and testing, which IMHO should be linked from the Troubleshooting post / page; I would also be happy to adapt to a wiki / doc page or whatever). It has been a very long road for me, but I kept coming back... and the success was very sweet when it finally came! And now I know how to build and maintain my very own custom sensors, and the sky is the limit!

By the way, I disagree with those who say nRF24L01+ are not worth it. But maybe I have just had good luck (now that I know how to test, position, etc.). Great, inexpensive little radios. I bought mine right off AliExpress, 2 x 10 pack of them IIRC...

One thing that kept me going in the meantime was having some successes along the way. At one point I must confess to giving up and I ordered a bunch of cheap 433mhz stuff. It works great! I still use it. If I hadn't done that though, I may have given up completely. But it was enough to keep the flame of HA alive.

The Tasmota / ESPxxxx stuff is similarly much "easier" to get started with, tradeoff being it uses Wi-Fi of course. But MySensors is for when you outgrow those sort of "off the shelf" solutions. And then you use something like OpenHAB (or whatever you prefer) to tie it all together seamlessly.

Speaking of OpenHAB, that is another complicated and famously high learning curve thing. Difference is, over there, they are very up front (in forums anyway) about that. They will tell you outright that you are creating a bespoke HA system. It is going to be a lot of work, learning, trial and error, etc. Back to the case of MySensors here, we are talking about tying together many disciplines from radio propagation, to electronics, to programming, etc...

One other difference between OpenHAB and MySensors that I personally perceive is that they have a bigger and more active community perhaps. At least on the forums, which are very active and you almost immediately get questions answered (I have come across a number of unanswered questions here while searching around). They are relentless about updating docs (they also make it easier for everyone to do so, more on that below). The MySensors devs are great and have shared this wonderful platform they have made with the world. But by now I think the community, docs, whatever maybe have not kept pace with the growth of the platform and new users? Maybe that is where we should concentrate our collective effort?

@Yveaux said in Started with MySensors and about to give up (some feedback):

we are currently discussing behind the scenes if/how we can let users edit the documentation pages

I'm actually surprised this isn't the norm. Let's remove friction here; many hands make light work! As I alluded to above, they make this super easy at OpenHAB. Every page has a link to "Edit this page on GitHub" where you don't even need to submit a PR or anything. They make it very easy. It would be great if we could move more towards something like this.

I bet anyone who cared enough to reply to this thread (and has the time to do so) would probably even pitch in a bit to help out in that department, so the small handful of you devs don't get burnt out trying to keep up with everything yourselves...