💬 In Wall AC/DC Pcb (with Relay) for MySensors (SMD)

[sundberg84]

@tonnerre33 - im a couple of days from recieving the board (second try). I will asemble it with instructions and release the files.

[sundberg84]

I received my boards today. Away for a week but will assemble, test and release files asap.

[gus]

Looks really promising!!
This is exactly what I lookin for.
The safety concerns in this project is right on target!

[sundberg84]

I have a small update so you know this isn't dead. Still much irl to do and cant find enough time at the moment but... the 5v side with the Mysensors time aware sketch works great.

Some small changes was made to the schematics but nothing major. Next upp is 240v av side that needshe to be tested and then the relay.

[gus]

@sundberg84 yes, irl can be tough
I'll be watching your project, keep up!

[sundberg84]

Everything is moving along slowly...

Today i tested the relay function, the AC - DC (HLK) and if everything fitted inside the 3d box.

Found some issues with the relay... it opens ok, but I cant close it again so the relay remains open... I need to figure out (or ask) if there is something wrong with my schematics or if the relay I used was bad.

Also I have to add some mm on the 3dbox in the holes for the relay and HLK.

I have uploaded some images and the eaglesfiles - but I would not recommend to create any pcbs yet - im not satisfied with the result and things will change on the layout and other.

[sundberg84]

Updated the 3dbox with some variants...
From left...
Box with access to MysX Connector
Box wthout any access to inside (except AC screw terminal)
Box with hole for a g3mc-202 relay and no other access.

[hek]

I hope to add a stl 3d viewer soon.. starting to get a grip on three.js :).

[vladimir]

Hello. Please write size of the device in the box.

[sundberg84]

@vladimir The PCB is 50x36 cm.

[vladimir]

@sundberg84 Please tell me, how you can connect a maximum output devices into an outlet controlled by the relay? As I understand it, it will not sustain even the kettle?
I apologize in advance for the stupid question, I'm not good at electronics.

[Chester]

@vladimir , you are correct, in that you can only connect a load that is less than the rating of the relay's, or you can cause damage. Realistically what you would do is use this unit for lighting where the load required can be calculated and won't really change, or if you were using it for a switch, you would need to have some kind of labelling noting that it was only for a maxmium xxxW output.

[sundberg84]

@vladimir - yep, and for protection there is a fuse.
Maximum for the G3MC-202PL is 2 A at 100 to 240 VAC

[ragflyer]

Cool design! Could you post the dimensions including box and relay?
I understand one can update firmware through the MYSX connector?

[sundberg84]

@ragflyer - Thank you!

I suggest using the ISCP to update firmware. There isnt any DTR (to reset) on the MysX (this design - its coming next revision).
The box is 56mm wide and 43mm deep and the height is 24.6mm
Uncluding the SSR relay sticking out its 29mm height.

[fra290]

Hi sundberg84,
what's the status of this great project? can I produce the PCB? I want use this for sopstitute my current X10 plant based on around 20 micro module.
only one question, I need to control light also by a traditional switch (momentary button) where a can connect the normal switch, A1 or A2 to GND is OK? in my case can be lot of distance from the node to switch, in some case more them 4 meters and the wire for control switch run in a same pipe to grid linee, can this plant create interference? what do you think to insert one optical cupolaed?
Thanks..
MArco

[sundberg84]

@fra290 - Hi!
Status is that I have just received the updated new PCB and are planning to test them... but havent had the time.
I have updated openhardware.io with 7.1 which is the latest and the one im testing.

You can download the gerber or eagles files and manufacture.
I have also made a request for the pcbhouses to add 7.1 so you can buy them from openhardware.io

Its small revisions and I dont think there should be any major issues with 7.1

[proddy]

@sundberg84 Thanks for sharing this. I'm gathering the components and plan to build it soon when the PCB v7.1 is available.

I do have a few questions if I may

• with the Relay, is it important to have one that has zero crossover? E.g the difference between getting the G3MC-202PL over a G3MC-202P
• what were you planning to use the 16Mhz oscillator for eventually?
• do you see any issues if I build the first prototype using an ESP-12 (ESP8266 with onboard Serial WiFi running at 3.3v)?

[sundberg84]

@Paul-Derbyshire

1. It must depend on what you are planning to connect to the relay
2. The oscillator is for the MCU - you can program a bootloader without it and use the internal.
3. No issue - please do! Im glad i can make stuff that gets the community forward. Best of luck!

[proddy]

@sundberg84 said:

It must depend on what you are planning to connect to the relay

It would use it to switch on and off an external mounted lamp - so with a fixed Watt & Voltage. Probably an LED 220V Lamp. Should I avoid zero-crossover as I've read somewhere that zero-crossover can cause a surge current of perhaps 10 to 40 times the steady state current when switched on.

[sundberg84]

@Paul-Derbyshire - sorry, to be hones i missunderstood you.
Most SSR sold for arduino are P and not PL it seems.

"The light from the diode is beamed into a light-sensitive semiconductor that, in the case of zero-voltage crossover relays, conditions the control circuit to turn on the output solid-state switch at the next zero-voltage crossover. In the case of nonzero-voltage crossover relays, the output solid-state switch is turned on at the precise voltage occurring at the time."

[Jose Simoes]

hi, just an idea, do you think it is possible to add a current sensor to the PCB in order to add a power meter function to the node to monitor power consumption? say up to 20A

[sundberg84]

@Jose-Simoes - no clue about current sensors... sorry I just cant answer that at the moment.

[Jose Simoes]

This post is deleted!

[Jose Simoes]

@sundberg84 -hey, i was meaning something like the ACS712 Module, but add the ic to the PCB for better integration.

[sundberg84]

@Jose-Simoes said in In Wall AC/DC Pcb (with Relay) for MySensors (SMD):

ACS712

Well, to safe space and meet my goal to be able to have it so small so it fits inside a wallsocket i have excluded all sensors and included the MysX connector. This way every user can add their own sensor.

[Justas]

Hi, @sundberg84
I'm really interested in this module. Maybe stupid question, but I'm very new with openhardware and would like to understand: if I will go and buy through the link provided (10xPCB for 15$), will I receive already assembled unit with all the parts, or I have to go and buy parts and assemble it myself?
Thanks & Regards

[tonnerre33]

@Justas Hello,

yes you have to buy parts and assemble them yourself. 1.5$ by PCB is cheap, you can't have the components for this price

[gohan]

@Justas
you get the PCB only, then you have to buy all the components and solder them on the pcb
If you aren't a lot familiar with soldering you could also evaluate Sonoff wifi relays

[Justas]

Thanks, I also checked the parts list and found that total price is more than $14, so now I see how stupid my questions was

[proddy]

and building it is 99% of the fun !

[hugch]

Very nice project. And it is so nice that you thought about the fuses for the power supply and the relais.
I have two additional ideas:

• adding the ATSHA204 fo secure signing
• I could be to big to integrate but something like this (https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1Bit-AC-220V-Optocoupler-Isolation-Module-Testing-Board-Adaptive-for-PLC/32754734564.html) would be great to detect the in wall switch state.

[exilit]

Great project, thank you for sharing. Searching for a power supply i found your project which seems to fit my needs pretty well. What do you think are the main differences to the AC/DC/Double SSD Relay by Aproxx (https://www.mysensors.org/hardware/ac-dc-ssd-relay). I am mainly interested in the AC/DC conversion part.Would like to hear your opinion on that.

[sundberg84]

@exilit - sorry my friend, I have not studied the AC/DC/Double SSD Relay by Aproxx very closely.
Mine is a bit smaller instead of 50x50 but he got 2 relays.

[exilit]

@sundberg84 Thank you for your reply. Do you see big differences regarding the safety?
As far as I see both projects use a slow blow fuse and a thermal fuse to protect the AC-side.

Sorry for digging deeper, but both projects look great. Yours seems to be better tested,
but the other one has two relays. Hard to decide, which one to use :-).

[sundberg84]

@exilit - I think we both origin from the original discussion about the HLK-PM01: https://forum.mysensors.org/topic/1607/safe-in-wall-ac-to-dc-transformers.
If you read this you can pretty much see everything in the PCB (fuses, varistor and temp fuse to protect the HLK module).

[Martin Nicolaisen]

Hi @sundberg84 does it fit the fuga (scandinavian) wall socket? :=

[sundberg84]

@martin-nicolaisen - Im not familiar with the fuga wall socket.
I use standard round wall sockets (60cm). Can you point me to an image with dimensions ?

[gohan]

@sundberg84 said in In Wall AC/DC Pcb (with Relay) for MySensors (SMD):

(60cm)

Wow that's quite a wall plug

[sundberg84]

@gohan - lol
60mm!!!!

[meanmrgreen]

https://photos.app.goo.gl/JBIVogCZMp0mOCVh2

I must have been drunk when I ordered this. Any idea what I have ordered? I ordered thru dirtypcbs somehow.

Does look a little bit like this PCB but not really. Have I found a early version and drunk ordered 10 of em?

[gohan]

That looks like version 4.1

[Nightbodom]

Hi folks, I manage to solder all the tiny pieces together and now I need some advice on uploading some code/sketch. To start with... is there any instruction for dummies on internet how to upload sketch through ICSP ? I have one arduino which can be programmer, but I don't know how to do it. Then there is question about powering circuit during uploading code.... is it OK if it's connect to AC power during uploading code? And finally, can anyone post some simple sketch for this board to check if everythiing is working? Thanks for help.

[hugch]

@nightbodom Arduino have a tutorial for this https://www.arduino.cc/en/Tutorial/ArduinoISP

[Nightbodom]

@hugch thanks for info. I also find this: https://www.arduino.cc/en/Tutorial/ArduinoToBreadboard for burning bootloader. And after that... how should I upload sketch?

[sundberg84]

@nightbodom you connect it to a ISP programmer to the port. This will take care of 5v and Gnd as well so don't connect to AC during upload

[Nightbodom]

@sundberg84 so I use ISP programmer for burning bootloader... but after that how can i upload sketch... usualy I use FTDI programmer for proMINI ect. but here I don't see TX/RX... so how do you upload sketch?

[sundberg84]

@nightbodom / either you use the isp to program the sketch without the bootloader or you can use the MysX connector where you will find all the necessary pins for ftdi.

[Nightbodom]

@sundberg84 thanks for advice... I successfully load bootloader through ISP with spare Uno as programmer, then I try to load a sketch with ftdi but it didn't recognize PCB. I also try with arduino uno as ISP and it goes without problem. I use node manager sketch with relay and connect it to AC wires...and nothing!
After visual checking of PCB I check fuses and notice that thermal fuse is dead. So I think I burn it with soldering. Any advice how to solder it?

[sundberg84]

@nightbodom - this can be a bit tricky. Some suggest cooling pincers or tongs to hold it while soldering. Myself I solder as normal and wait it to cool down before continue. As long as you are quick and not heat it up to much it should work.

If you power the pcb with FTDI it should work without the fuse though. But I guess you power it through AC->HLK and use only RX/TX/GND and Rst from ftdi?

[ben999]

@nightbodom I use crocodile clips and get fairly good results with very few dead fuses....

[Grave]

Is it possible to use with RFM69 modul?

[gohan]

I guess not on as this module is using SMD NRF24 module

[sundberg84]

@Grave - well @gohan is right, I cant fit a RFM69 module on this board.

[Grave]

I will try to rebuild it in eagle for RFM69. I think the space is there for an RFM69.

[Grave]

Or I will build an adapter.

[Grave]

Hi sundberg84,
can you maybe take a look on my board. I have rebuild it so you can use it with rfm69 and NRF24 moduls. I have build an adapter, which will stand vertical behin the HLK-PM01.
But how can I upload a picture?

[sundberg84]

@grave Sure, you can just copy it into the message box.

[Grave]

http://www.directupload.net/file/d/5020/dyi4y337_png.htm

[sundberg84]

@grave - at first it looks really good. Hard for me on a image to check every connection but I can not see any errors.

[Grave]

Thanks,
I can upload this evening the schematic and the board. But my schematic is not so fine as yours. I didn´t find pinheaders with 2mm distance, so they are single pads.

[Grave]

Hi,
here are my schematic and the layout. I have build also an adapter for the rfm69 modul to use with an Sensebender Micro, because I had still place enough.
https://www.file-upload.net/download-13018265/InWallPCB71RFM69.brd.html
https://www.file-upload.net/download-13018266/InWallPCB71RFM69.sch.html

[sundberg84]

@grave - sorry, I dont run Eagle anymore so I cant check them.

[Grave]

Do you use both, thermal fuse and the normal fuse? I can´t see it in your picture. I don´t find a normal fuse with 0,2A in Germany.

[sundberg84]

@grave yes I do for both temp and current protection. I want it to be overkill when it's diy. If you follow the links on openhardware you will find the security discussion.

[Grave]

I have read it. But i didn´t find the fuse on the picture. Do you have one with both fuses? I have problems to find such fuses in this dimension in Germany. For the Varistor I have find one with 120 Jule. I think it´s ok.

[sundberg84]

@grave - I have bought my fuses from China. Im sure its possible to find on mouser or digikey,.

[sineverba]

@sundberg84 sorry for question. i'm tryng to understand the scope for the SSR Relay. Can you explain me? Is it for some kind of safe or is it governable from the Atmega? Thank you!

[gohan]

It has smaller footprint and it doesn't wear out during time like mechanical relays

[sundberg84]

@sineverba it is much to learn and instead of me trying to make a half ok job I would suggest you search SSR vs mechanical relay. I think greatscott did a great Youtube video about it.

[rzylius]

hi, I get constantly messages Arduino: 1.8.5 (Linux), Board: "Arduino Pro or Pro Mini, ATmega328P (5V, 16 MHz)"
avrdude: stk500_getsync() attempt 7 of 10: not in sync: resp=0xde
avrdude: stk500_getsync() attempt 8 of 10: not in sync: resp=0x4c
avrdude: stk500_getsync() attempt 9 of 10: not in sync: resp=0x9d
avrdude: stk500_getsync() attempt 10 of 10: not in sync: resp=0xaa

is this hardware problem? I select Arduino Pro Mini board setting with AVRISP mkII programmer. are these ok?

[sundberg84]

@rzylius could be a bootloader or hardware settings. I would check the reset resistor. Do you know which bootloader is on or did you manage to upload one though iscp header?

[rzylius]

@sundberg84 said in In Wall AC/DC Pcb (with Relay) for MySensors (SMD):

header?

No, I did not. I used to work with arduinos, so this is the first time I bought and try mega328p. could you advise where to find a resource with step-by-step instructions on that?

[rzylius]

@sundberg84 , sorry, I meant I did not burn the bootloader and was not aware of that.

Did you mean "reset capacitator", not resistor?

And on that note, am I right that reset to iscp should go to DTS contact?

thanks for help.

[sundberg84]

@rzylius - some chip have bootloader on it already, some dont. Depends on where you buy it - but the only way to be able to upload through ftdi is if there is a bootloader.

I meant reset capacitor Thanks! Yes, reset should go to DTS.

[nekitoss]

I was wondering if 73 defree for thermal fuse is long-operating temperature or blow temperature? (i looked at well-known for you all test, where it heated around 63 degrees at 1hour rated load)
In any case long-time 73C thermal fuse will have around 100C blow temperature (looked at my local store). I'm asking because on ebay link they are rated as 240C...

Other moment i woul like to aware - (as you know, not shure about others) - there are counterfeit G3MB-202P relays everywhere, which are officially discontinued March 2011 (!).
You correcly put there a G3MC-202P relay. But someone may not notice those difference in one letter and buy a counterfeight relay in local store...
Also i was sitting and reading a lot about safety, especially about counterfeits in this high-voltage parts, and found this picture which shows, what happened with those (i think, because of post date)bad relay with 1 Amp load with incandescent lamps.
That is also a problem of all SSR relays - that they heat. So i was wondering how much heats original relay and if it is good idea and possible (i understand that it is very hard to update such small pcb) to move thermal fuse between relay and HLK-PM01, so it can protect both? Or put it verticall (not shure about clearance and creepage in this case) in corner between them.

I was dissapointed about price of relay, especially against counterfeit, but safety is worth it! Also you can make same simple sheme as inside relay (even from datasheet on moc30xx), but you must know a lot in electonics to make it as safe as sealed factory relay i think (but in oppsite in such shemas over internet ushually resistor are recommended up to 2Watt (for 16A shemas) while smd resistors have much less watts...).
Also it would be nice to add in description to what this relay can be applied to. Because not everyone may understand that incandescent lamps at start have bigger current, and at the moment filament is broken a short-ciruit with arc appears. And ssr relays usually die at short-circuit and you need fast fuse to save them, but they are expensive... And you should not use it with motors, etc or use with lower ratings...
I really think they must be warned, even shortly.

And only 100% way to buy original HLK-PM01, is to buy from manufacturer site. but i'm wondering how much will cost shipping. Wholesale price (which is in basket) is even lower than ebays. At the moment it is 2.50$

Sorry for so much text, i may somewhere be wrong, feel free to correct me and discuss. But when it is about safety - i cannot stand aside.

[sundberg84]

@nekitoss Hi! Thanks for you input.
CUrrently I do not have any plans to change anything on this board. Its created in Eagles CAD which i havent used since i moved to Kicad. I dont even have it installed anymore. The good thing is that all files are included so you can download and change for yourself.

[jeremushka]

Nice project :). What is the maximum load the system can accept? 16A 1500W?

[sundberg84]

@jeremushka - if you mean through the relay, it depends on which one you choose - check the datasheet for that. I used a g3mc-202pl and this is no more than 1A-2A

[jeremushka]

@sundberg84 thank you. Yes i mean through the relay i need to switch a water heating system 2500W. I need a relay capability for 20A to secure the interface.
I don't know much for this kind of relay i need to modify the schematic of a 10A relay switch. Such as different optocoupler or transistor.. do you have any idea?

[sundberg84]

@jeremushka - sorry, i dont know enought about high currents like that to help.

[jeremushka]

@sundberg84 no problem. I will study about that. Thanks for you reply.

[gohan]

Do you really need a compact device?