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TRS-80T

TRS-80

@TRS-80
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Recent Best Controversial

  • Finally, progress! (evidence based radio testing method) (and capacitors)
    TRS-80T TRS-80

    Like many, I struggled for a long time to get things working reliably. Finally some progress the last couple days. The biggest leap forward for me was learning about the PingPong sketch, and using it to implement evidence based testing. Along with a couple other small tricks.

    If you are having radio trouble (or reliability trouble in general), I highly recommend starting out with the PingPong sketch, aka GettingStarted.ino example in the RF24 library. In fact, I think I will be flashing this first on all new radio nodes, to test my soldering / assembly, as well as positioning of the node initially, etc.

    As an aside, I also started using PlatformIO recently, I personally find it much less confusing than the official Arduino IDE (and now I can use a real editor! :grin: ). I only mention it because that is the serial monitor command you will see below.

    I am also on GNU/Linux, so I collected my data with a simple tee command on the output of pio device monitor, like so:
    $ platformio device monitor -b 115200 -p /dev/ttyUSB<X> | tee test<Y>

    I then make a copy of the file and call it test<Y>-trimmed, which I then edit by hand to remove header lines at top and also the lines like "*** CHANGING TO TRANSMIT ROLE -- PRESS 'R' TO SWITCH BACK
    ", etc. So we end up with only result lines like the following:

    Now sending 92111...ok...Got response 92111, round-trip delay: 28
    Now sending 93139...ok...Got response 93139, round-trip delay: 29
    Now sending 94170...ok...Got response 94170, round-trip delay: 34
    Now sending 95205...ok...Failed, response timed out.
    Now sending 96408...ok...Got response 96408, round-trip delay: 23
    Now sending 97432...ok...Got response 97432, round-trip delay: 23
    

    Now that I have a "trimmed" file containing only lines of results, I wrote a small bash script to calculate some things from there a little more easily:

    #!/bin/bash
    
    lines_total=$(cat "$1" | wc -l)
    lines_response=$(grep 'Got response' "$1" | wc -l)
    percent=$(echo "100 * $lines_response / $lines_total" | bc -l)
    artd=$(grep 'round-trip delay: ' "$1" | rev | cut -c -2 | rev | awk '{ sum+=$1 } END { print sum/NR }' )
    
    printf 'Lines of Response: %s\n' "$lines_response"
    printf 'Lines Total: %s\n' "$lines_total"
    printf 'Response %%: %.2f\n' "$percent"
    printf 'Average Round Trip Delay (ARTD): %.2f\n' "$artd"
    

    I save it as calculate, make it executable ($ chmod +x calculate) and then execute it with the name of the filename to process like $ ./calculate test1-trimmed which would return something like:

    Lines of Response: 801
    Lines Total: 1016
    Response %: 78.84
    Average Round Trip Delay (ARTD): 25.75
    

    I then plug these results into a table in Orgmode in Emacs, carefully accounting for each variable I thought might be relevant:

    |----+----+----+-------+----+-----+-----+----+-----+------+------+--------+-------+---|
    | TN | SL | RL | STC   | SC | SCL | RTC | RC | RCL |   LR |   LT |    R % |  ARTD | N |
    |----+----+----+-------+----+-----+-----+----+-----+------+------+--------+-------+---|
    |  1 | 1  |  1 | 1,3,4 | 1  | 12  | 2   | 1  | 21  |  878 |  906 |  96.91 | 28.16 |   |
    |  2 | "  |  2 | "     | "  | "   | "   | "  | "   |      |      |        |       |   |
    |  3 | "  |  " | "     | 2  | "   | "   | 2  | "   |  801 | 1016 |  78.84 | 25.75 | 1 |
    |  4 | "  |  3 | "     | "  | "   | "   | "  | "   |  910 |  959 |  94.89 | 23.68 |   |
    |  5 | "  |  4 | "     | "  | "   | "   | "  | "   |  853 |  946 |  90.17 | 25.22 |   |
    |  6 | 6  |  " | "     | "  | "   | "   | "  | "   |  871 |  875 |  99.54 | 23.73 | 2 |
    |  7 | "  |  5 | "     | "  | "   | "   | "  | "   |   28 |  289 |   9.69 | 40.39 |   |
    |  8 | "  |  7 | "     | "  | "   | "   | "  | "   |  684 |  684 | 100.00 | 22.91 | 3 |
    |  9 | "  |  " | "     | 1  | "   | "   | 1  | "   |  600 | 1042 |  57.58 | 34.47 |   |
    | 10 | "  |  " | "     | 3  | "   | "   | 3  | "   | 1014 | 1051 |  96.48 | 24.58 |   |
    | 11 |    |    |       |    |     |     |    |     |      |      |        |       |   |
    |----+----+----+-------+----+-----+-----+----+-----+------+------+--------+-------+---|
    - Key:
      - Abbreviations:
        - TN = Test Number
        - SL = Sender Location
        - RL = Receiver Location
        - STC = Sender Test Conditions
        - SC = Sending Capacitance
        - SCL = Sending Cable Length (mm)
        - RTC = Receiver Test Conditions
        - RC = Receiver Capacitance
        - RCL = Receiver Cable Length (mm)
        - LR = Lines Response
        - LT = Lines Total
        - R % = Response %
        - ARTD = Average Round Trip Delay
        - N = Notes
      - Keys:
        - Locations:
          1. desk in front of keyboard
          2. coffee table living room
          3. dining room table
          4. kitchen counter by stove
          5. floor by front door (previous door switch radio location)
          6. On top of both CPU towers, then plastic box
          7. front door but higher up
        - Test Conditions:
          1. Arduino Nano 5v
          2. Arduino Pro Mini 3.3v
          3. Mismatched length power cables
          4. ferrite choke on USB power cable to computer
        - Capacitor(s):
          1. single 4.7uF capacitor
          2. 1uF + 10uF capacitors
        - Notes:
          1. A lot of interference from me moving my chair/body(?) in between and banging tools on the
             table.
          2. Antenna in vertical plane, face toward dining room table.
          3. Took some effort to align plane of receiving antennae face to face.
    

    Now, I am no where nearly as talented in electronics and radios as some of the guys on this forum, however I do know how to follow basic scientific principles and do experiments... And by doing so, I have been able to learn quite a lot about radio propagation, electronics (ideal decoupling capacitor values), as well as things particular to my own site conditions here. And this is what I wanted to share. Even if you are not an expert, you can do the same and get a much better result.

    For me, I feel like I am finally making some progress (instead of throwing darts in the dark)!

    A few other little details. I want to talk about decoupling capacitors. I know it is already mentioned frequently, but doing experiments as above you can test and really see the difference for yourself.

    First, how to attach the caps? I saw in someone's YouTube video (Great Scott! I think it was) where he had soldered the cap to the top part of the nRF board, I mean where the stub of the header pokes through the board, where you would be soldering to attach the header, opposite side of where you would attach your dupont cables. I thought this was a great idea and I started doing it, too. Keeps it out of the way, and insures a good electrical connection. I never really liked just jamming the leads of the cap into the back of the dupont connector housing. I never was sure it was making a good connection, the wires are easy to bend and they are different lengths, etc... just a big hassle. This way is much better!

    IMG_20200607_124626_DRO.jpg

    Secondly, about decoupling capacitor values. I have heard all kinds of stuff thrown around, from 4.7uF to 47uF to 100uF, and then some people even saying to combine a 0.1uF and a 10uF in parallel. I get the impression, that in most of cases (except the parallel case, or in the case of you few EEs out there ;) ) that most people are just guessing, and/or parroting stuff they heard somewhere.

    I did a bit of research on this, even started watching one of EEVBlog videos about it (until I started dozing off, lol). Now, I am no EE for sure, but there appears to be something to the parallel thing, which I was able to bear out in testing. Check some of my results above where I purposefully kept all conditions the same, except for swapping out radios with different decoupling capacitor setups. The results (for me at least) were dramatic. For instance look at tests 8 and 9. Now I didn't have a 0.1uF cap on hand, so I used the smallest one I could find which was 1uF + a 10uF. And with that arrangement, 100% Response %! Compared to 57.58% with a single 4.7uF cap. This is at maybe 20m distance inside, through 1 or 2 walls with metal studs and drywall.

    Troubleshooting nrf24l01+ radio

  • Easy PCB Question
    TRS-80T TRS-80

    Hi @grumpazoid,

    I just ordered some of the Easy PCB for the first time, as I am also tired of dickering with spaghetti mess. Therefore I was studying the board recently. Design in general seems quite adaptable to various powering scenarios (battery, 3.3v, 5v, raw, etc...) which I suppose is the point.

    Space on board for resistor divider is built in, although you may need to calculate different values for 18650 as I think what pre-calculated values are for (2x?) AA maybe(?). Not really sure about that part.

    To your specific question, have you examined the information presented about the board over at OpenHardware.io? There is quite a lot of very useful information there. For example, look closely at the regulator part of the board, and the BOM. It appears to be made to accommodate LE33ACZ, which were what I ordered. Not as cheap as the 662K (plus you already have them) but I figured they are only buck or two for 10 of them (shipped), so in my view for the money probably not worth the hassle (my opinion).

    Back to your specific question, I guess your options are:

    • Study pin outs of board, your regulator, and size (662K are quite tiny!) and see if you think you can make it work with those... Or...

    • Do what I did and just order some of the LE33ACZ which I think were designed to be exact fit.

    If you were hoping for some direct confirmation from someone who has done it already, sorry I can't provide that, but since we are roughly in the same ball park I thought I would share my experience / thoughts.

    Hardware

  • Cloud storage for home automation?
    TRS-80T TRS-80

    Your concerns are absolutely valid! And, BTW congratulations for being one of the few nowadays that question these sort of things (privacy, security) in general, instead of just blindly accepting them!

    Why would you not consider rolling your own? There are a number of inexpensive hardware available, and a number of software choices (and/or combinations of softwares that integrate well together) that will let you do almost whatever you want.

    Going the commercial "out of the box" route may be the easiest to get started, but you may eventually run in to proprietary lock in, incompatibility, and/or missing one or more certain features that you really need (some of which, may not even be apparent at the current time).

    It is for these reasons that I tend personally to lean more in the direction of rolling my own, and using open source software, hardware, etc. You can do whatever you want to, and it's almost always costs less money. :) If things end up not working out with one system, you can change software later and go in another direction, you still own your hardware. But, you will need to spend a little time learning some things. Is that so bad? :)

    There are many guides, much useful information, and many helpful communities (like this one!) on the internet nowadays; it's really not that difficult. Plus, it is very rewarding learning and figuring things out and accomplishing them. :)

    How much/what kind of data do you need to store? Just the HA setup? Sounds like maybe security system video as well? Video can take up a lot of HDD space (or bandwidth, so much in fact that it is probably not practical to upload). Do you also need a backup solution also for perhaps photos and/or other data?

    Give us a little more information about what you want your ultimate, complete dream system to eventually look like and include, and that will allow us to recommend some hardware and software which will (eventually) meet that goal.

    Begin with the end in mind, I say. It will save you a lot of time, headaches, and $ down the road.

    General Discussion

  • Finally, progress! (evidence based radio testing method) (and capacitors)
    TRS-80T TRS-80

    I wanted to test my theory that two different value capacitors in parallel was somehow better than one of a similar capacity. So with everything exactly the same as I had left it last night, I soldered up two new radios, except this time with only a single 10uF electrolytic 50v capacitor, instead of 1uF + 10uF.

    Results can be found in "test 10" above. Looks slightly less reliable at 96.48% than test 8 which was 100%!

    Now, I am not going to the trouble of using the exact same radios, desoldering components, etc... I suppose there is a chance that some of these radios might be "better" in some way than others. They did all come from the same batch at least, FWIW...

    Perhaps one of you professional angry pixie wranglers out there can verify that there is in fact something to the "two capacitors of different values in parallel" theory?

    But for me, this is a dramatic improvement over what I was getting before (test 7 being closest approximation), so I think I will get back to building a new gateway and some new nodes, putting to work some of the things I have learned here.

    Cheers! :beers:

    Troubleshooting nrf24l01+ radio

  • Easy PCB Question
    TRS-80T TRS-80

    @grumpazoid said in Easy PCB Question:

    Those cases look good value.

    They are even cheaper on AliExpress, IIRC. I buy through the MySensors store affiliate links whenever possible, but if the price difference is big enough, well... Also some times the store links are not always up to date (thinking further now, I guess the real solution is to probably ping someone about that somehow, in order to get them updated?).

    Often I prefer to directly financially support projects I care about by simply making a donation. Haven't done that in the case of MySensors yet, as they seem to be doing "OK" (although I have no idea really) but I'm sure I will at some point when I am back to work.

    @grumpazoid said in Easy PCB Question:

    Luckily I have access to a 3D printer

    Very nice. This is the best option, of course. I keep thinking about it, and certainly I will pick up (or build) one, sooner or later... For now though, it's still boxes for me. :D

    @sundberg84 said in Easy PCB Question:

    who needs to be here wathing your hardware questions when you have such a good community - thanks

    Helping out in whatever small way I can is the least I can do in return of the spirit in which so much thought, research, work has been carried out before I came along, and then shared freely here! Cheers! :beers:

    I certainly do not act this way towards proprietary, closed source solutions and their dinosaur business models, and personally I strongly encourage others to take the same approach. Not a single ounce of my valuable resources (time, thought, mindshare, money, etc.) to support them! In fact I would not so much as urinate on those sort if they were on fire! :D

    Hardware

  • Read this first - it could SAVE YOU A LOT OF TIME
    TRS-80T TRS-80

    Like many, I struggled for literally years getting MySensors to work. Recently I tried (yet again) and this time around I began by focussing on an evidence based radio testing method, which for me was the key to success. I humbly cross-link it from here in the hopes that it is helpful to others, because it makes me sad reading how many people have given up trying to get MySensors to work.

    Good luck!

    And by all means please do not suffer, struggling along in silence. Make a post and try and get some help before frustration mounts too high, and you give up (as I did, many times).

    Troubleshooting

  • MH-Z19 CO2 sensor
    TRS-80T TRS-80

    @Joseph-Gill said in MH-Z19 CO2 sensor:

    "simplicity"

    Welcome to the forums, Joseph.

    I am glad to see you put "simplicity" in quotes. Personally, I think that the level of difficulty that is portrayed towards new people (i.e., "it's easy!") is a little misleading. It is easy if you have "The Knack" but perhaps not so for everyone.

    @Joseph-Gill said in MH-Z19 CO2 sensor:

    How hard would it be

    I think this depends mostly on an honest evaluation of your own skills. You will need to have at least basic understanding of the technologies involved: radio propagation, electronics, coding, etc...

    Now, all of this can be learned of course, especially if you have interest, and time...

    So another part of it is also your expectations. If you need something "right now" then you might be happier to go buy something "off the shelf."

    OTOH, if you enjoy tinkering, learning, and want to eventually be able to build all different sort of devices exactly to your specifications and needs, then MySensors might be the right thing for you.

    IMO, I think the best approach is to take this as a hobby, slowly acquiring parts (the least expensive ones take a long time to come from China!) as well as knowledge, and eventually increasing your capabilities over a long period of time. And you will learn (IMO) very valuable skills in the process...

    Hardware

  • one question ! about interference wave !
    TRS-80T TRS-80

    Somewhat related, is anyone aware of a tool that would allow you to visualize (or otherwise look at in any fashion) RF spectrum, without spending an arm and a leg?

    I know I have an app on my Android called Wi-Fi Analyzer, it's very helpful some times in diagnosing overlapping Wi-Fi channels in a crowded apartment building for example.

    I suppose I was just wondering if there was something more generalized to RF and not Wi-Fi channels specifically?

    Vera

  • Your workshop :)
    TRS-80T TRS-80

    I enjoyed perusing everyone's work benches. :)

    I have a number of other (non electronic) projects already in the works, but when I complete those I'll be setting up a little area to do my electronic piddling. I'm really looking forward to it.

    When I get that set up, I'll post back here. :)

    General Discussion

  • Finally, progress! (evidence based radio testing method) (and capacitors)
    TRS-80T TRS-80

    Not using repeaters, but I am aware that the return from send() is for next hop only. In fact that was part of what convinced me to skip the repeater function in the node I am currently working on, even though it is centrally located and always powered. Well, that plus my radio testing indicating a repeater was not needed as long as I keep all the radios high up on the walls.

    Anyway, I gave it a quick glance, looks nice! I think I might agree with you about the method of logging the time series data, but need to think about it still. I'll dig into it (and that other thread) later on as I'm knee deep in something else at the moment. :)

    Thanks for posting up your code! I've pulled enough hair out by now, anything to ease the pain is always greatly appreciated! :beers:

    Troubleshooting nrf24l01+ radio

  • House renovation, how to a good electrical system oriented to MySensors?
    TRS-80T TRS-80

    @sundberg84 said:

    Its a hard question. I wish many times I had power for Arduino in every wall but that would also cost a lost of money.

    That would cost most people a lot of money, especially to retrofit, but he is remodeling / adding electric anyway, so it's just a matter of pulling another small wire or two. And then he would be saving on power supplies for each and every node (he would only need one central power supply / step down transformer in the basement), won't have to worry about batteries, etc...

    What are the building codes in your area however with regards to having low voltage wiring along in the same conduits as your mains wiring? I'm guessing it would need to be run separately in parallel. Is conduit required inside walls or can you run just insulated wire (especially for the low voltage)? These questions are what is going to determine your cost.

    Hardware

  • Multimeter recommendation?
    TRS-80T TRS-80

    I probably shouldn't contribute to this thread, I just keep picking up those free ones from Harbor Freight!

    /runs away in shame

    LOL

    General Discussion

  • [SOLVED] Dropped node: arduino blinks only once
    TRS-80T TRS-80

    @kiesel said in Dropped node: arduino blinks only once:

    2 AA rechargables, 1.6V in total

    Mikael beat me to it, this was also the first thing that jumped out at me. Second thing was all those leads poking out everywhere, maybe trim those up, any one of them touching a ground plane could be causing a short or other issues.

    Troubleshooting

  • A $6.61 "linux computer" that's about the size of an Arduino Pro Mini...
    TRS-80T TRS-80

    @neverdie said in A $6.61 "linux computer" that's about the size of an Arduino Pro Mini...:

    @nca78 At least in the past, the trouble I had with non-raspberry pi SBC's is that the linux software coverage for them was typically spotty/buggy. Has that improved at all, or is it still a big risk?

    Things have improved a lot the last few years, as long as you are careful in device selection.

    Don't become enamoured with hardware specs only. Some of these SBCs look great "on paper" but the software (driver) support is awful and they are stuck on some old kernel because the Chinese mfr. do not understand anything about what is Free Software and do not cooperate with the community in releasing documentation so we can write drivers, etc. Also look for good community support around the device in question. But typicaly this will be ~= the above (the more open the device, the more, better, and longer term support).

    If you do a little homework though, you will be alright. Some good resources to get started are Armbian (stick to their Supported Devices list, and you will have a good result), https://www.fsf.org/resources/hw/single-board-computers, and linux-sunxi, etc...

    Hardware

  • Raspberry Pi is frustrating and I wanted to vent
    TRS-80T TRS-80

    I just so happened to be shopping for a Micro SD card recently, to expand the storage on my phone.

    Very carefully reading the reviews, some people, even ordering directly from Amazon (i.e., not a reseller) apparently have had problems! Much of the review discussions are, in fact, centered around determining whether you have a fake or real card. And this is on Amazon, even!

    I'm just about as cheap as they come, but buying certain things (storage media being one of them), I bite the bullet and make sure I am getting genuine brand name, and from a reputable dealer.

    Especially when "biting the bullet" only amounts to a few more dollars anyway! It's just not worth the frustration and your time diagnosing.

    General Discussion therapy raspberry pi 2 complaining

  • [SOLVED] Dropped node: arduino blinks only once
    TRS-80T TRS-80

    Yaay! :D

    Thanks for reporting back.

    Troubleshooting

  • mysensor gateway with ENC28J60 Ethernet doubts!
    TRS-80T TRS-80

    In the meantime, check some of the things I mentioned. And/or, keep reading and searching Internet. You might make some progress. Keep reporting back how you are coming along, steps you tried, etc...

    Just be methodical. Take notes, etc... You can do it!

    Hardware

  • Anyone here tried one of the PCB assembly services?
    TRS-80T TRS-80

    There are several much more talented people than me working on several different solutions to common problems and doing great work at miniaturization.

    I have been dorking around for so long trying to put together basic things, that I will probably just wait for some of these other projects to come to fruition :) (and yes I know some have already).

    That combined nrf + atmega328 in qfn is another such great idea. I'm a little shocked no one has done it already, honestly. Or maybe other existing implementations were not good? But that is exactly what we need.

    Well that and the one integrated power supply (among others). That was a long thread but a great read. I learned a lot (still haven't finished it).

    So like @NeverDie, I also look forward to hearing about what you come up with @waspie with great anticipation.

    General Discussion

  • MySensors Controlled LED Accent Lighting (and/or Christmas Lights?)
    TRS-80T TRS-80

    OK. So the idea I had was to use MySensors + nRF24L01radios to make some nodes to remote control some individually addressable LED light strips. All the components (including the LED light strip) are pretty inexpensive nowadays. And with a strip of LEDs (and any number of small, inexpensive nodes to control them), you could cut and use little bits of strip almost wherever you want throughout your house.

    Some things I had in mind were:

    • A node with a motion sensor in the hallway that would (during night time hours) automatically light your way with a (not too bright) white LED light coming from underneath a low shelf.

    • Under cabinet kitchen lighting. Again, could be intelligently controlled to come on (at low intensity) depending on time of day (via a, perhaps separate, motion node).

    • Any sort of under shelf accent / reading light by sticking some strip to the underside of some of that IKEA Lack shelving that you can install almost anywhere and you can't see how the shelf is hung because the hardware is inside of it. I think this sort of battery operated node would look very clean and work well with that, without needing wires running everywhere.

    • Going the other direction, it could also be directed upwards out of some sort of wall sconce or high wall or trim feature.

    • For your battle station (PC) :) including potentially inside the case, or really just about anywhere you wanted some accent lighting.

    • No reason you could not use it to control Christmas lights on your tree, inside, outside, including color and moving patterns.

    Now of course I know that any more than a few LEDs will need a local power supply. Most of the places I would like to put any significant number of lights (entertainment center, battle station) have power available, so this will not be a problem (for me at least).

    I think this is a really good idea, in fact, I think if I get this all worked out it may become very popular use of MySensors as an almost universal lighting system.

    I am just now beginning the planning phases, I have found a couple projects where people have done some stuff with MySensors and LEDs but nothing I think to the sort of universal and customizeable extent that I am sort of imagining. Of course, if I have overlooked something, please point me in a direction before I get too much time/work/research into this, no need to re-invent the wheel after all. :)

    Other than that, I welcome everyone's thoughts, as I said I have just begun the research and planning phases. I'm Excited! :smiley:

    My Project

  • Ethernet Gateway - how reliable is it? which problems and how to avoid?
    TRS-80T TRS-80

    I think you should stop spamming the same topic in a bunch of different threads.

    In fact, I think mods should merge and/or delete all these secondary threads, and possibly even warn.

    Hardware
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