Fewer home automation postings? What's behind it?

[NeverDie]

@gohan said in Fewer home automation postings? What's behind it?:

I agree on the general idea the problem I see is that there will be a lot of custom solutions that would not fit for the shields: like the wemos shields they are easy to use but build volume is huge.

It doesn't have to be all or nothing. @Nca78 's collection is a pretty good starter kit. It also makes the wiring a "no brainer" because it's all done for you on the PCB's. Like I say, if you want to branch out from there, you can, but with the benefit of starting with a beginner platform that's already vetted and working.

[zboblamont]

@NeverDie I would tend to suspect there is already a treasure trove in all the fora for folks to dig into, which saves answering repetitive questions, hence reduced postings....

[NeverDie]

@zboblamont said in Fewer home automation postings? What's behind it?:

@NeverDie I would tend to suspect there is already a treasure trove in all the fora for folks to dig into, which saves answering repetitive questions, hence reduced postings....

If that's the case why is skywatch having so much trouble?

[Nca78]

I have to agree with @skywatch and a few others here, MySensors is relatively easy to start with using the documentation, you wire your pro mini & radio for gateway and sensor and you're running your first sensor in no time.
But as soon as you want to make things a bit more advanced, you face a lot of challenges that the doc on the website and suggested components make harder to solve :

• PA/LNA radio that fail, need wrapping in foil to have decent performance etc etc I'm pretty sure this is the most frequent cause of failure for MySensors network.
• examples with DHT sensors that are not convenient for battery usage => use of step up converters that create a whole set of new problems and unreliability
• PIR example with SR501 that runs at 5V so you need to alter them to run at lower voltage (3.3V) that's still not so convenient and they become unstable (triggered by radio tx/rx)

I'll make a list of suggestions to improve the docs, it will probably include writing a few more examples also, and some tutorials for a few things that are easy in fact easy to do but can seem hard from the outside like flashing bootloader on a pro mini or OTA update.

Currently I have restarted to test my NModule "shields", I will improve and/or fix them and probably convert the most useful ones to MySX Connector.

[zboblamont]

@NeverDie I was answering the original post on potential reasons, not addressing specific complaints.

Whatever improvements can be brought to the forum will be undoubtedly be welcomed, but as a beginner on this hobby I have fumbled my way around and gleaned considerable help getting started just searching on the site. I would hazard a guess that many others are floating around without taking part in discussions.... It's not as if folks aren't generally friendly and helpful...

[Sergio Rius]

I agree that frustration must be the cause of people leaving. One must know to filter and decipher the info in the forums, as initial (obsolete) recommendations on using step up converters and builds are there, for example. Old people accomplished things, and stepped the next level, but the library and tools evolved so the way of making things also changed.
And documentation does not help at all.

@Nca78 in fact, didn't know anything about wrapping the antenna!?
Still don't know if it is failing. And It's using a step... Down converter.

[nagelc]

I think frustration is probably a factor. Some parts of home automation can be quite difficult.
Just look at the "safe-in-wall-ac-to-dc-transformers" thread for an example. You really need to understand this to make a safe in wall switch to control your lights. Another difficult area is presence detection. Motion sensors and door switches can only get you so far.
I suspect many people get past the excitement of building their first sensors and find controlling things more difficult than they want to attempt. Then they end up buying something like a Phillips Hue or giving up all together.

PS: The first circuit board I designed is a temperature sensor with NRF24 from directions on this site. Now running over 2 years on a set of AA batteries. I feel a little proud of that one every time I see it still reporting it's temperature in Domoticz.

[zboblamont]

@nagelc If there is any frustration leading to folks abandoning DIY in favour of commercial offerings I suggest they would have favoured that route to begin with.
For somebody starting out on this DIY hobby the learning curve can be daunting, the technicalities and terminology may be comfortable for those with experience, it is easy to forget that the learner is essentially trying to decode hieroglyphics in the dark by dim candlelight, ie even the most basic explanations can prove challenging to begin with.
The problem for any forum will be the level at which the information is pitched, as it has to accommodate so many levels of expertise...

[gadgetman]

Rise of cheap zigbee sensors from China is my take. I have a bunch of highly reliable magnetic reed sensors, push buttons, PIR, temp sensors that are smaller and better looking than anything I could make with mysensors. I'm using ms for the more complex and custom applications I have in mind.

[gohan]

I am also keeping an eye on the xiaomi sensors as in fact they are cheap and better looking than anything you could make on your own. I am still wondering about their reliability and also I don't like a lot the gateway that connects directly to a wall plug.

[gadgetman]

@gohan I don't use their gateway as it's a bit clunky although it does have local control. Like many I use a Samsung smartthings hub which doesn't cost much more as it's often heavily discounted - pairing with the ST hub can be hit or miss though.

[NeverDie]

@gadgetman said in Fewer home automation postings? What's behind it?:

Rise of cheap zigbee sensors from China is my take. I have a bunch of highly reliable magnetic reed sensors, push buttons, PIR, temp sensors that are smaller and better looking than anything I could make with mysensors.

First I've heard of it. Any links?

[gadgetman]

@NeverDie Just do a search on sites like gearbest.com or Banggood.com for Xiaomi smart home. The common sensors go on sale fairly often but they're usually less than $10 a pop.

[gohan]

@gadgetman are you saying there is no guarantee to have the xiaomi sensors working on the ST hub?

[gadgetman]

@gohan Not at all. It's just that the pairing process has a manual element (as opposed to being capable of being auto discovered) to it as it's not officially supported by ST. Community members have developed device drivers for the window, temp, PIR and pushbutton switches. Although I had a few issues trying to settle on the right zigbee frequency (2.4Ghz so susceptible to interference from wifi sources), once that was sorted everything is working great.

[NeverDie]

@gadgetman said in Fewer home automation postings? What's behind it?:

smaller and better looking than anything I could make with mysensors.

@Nca78 Found some inexpensive yet attractive project boxes that you can put your sensors inside. Looks quite nice!
https://www.openhardware.io/view/411/BlackCircle-Sensor-High-WAF-TempHum-sensor

[scalz]

I agree with @gadgetman , it's easier&quicker to get started for "HA noobs" or those who don't want to spend too much time in hardware.

I thought about trying xia**i devices too. But I have no use, I have enough boards for my needs

That said, i've not been tempted because, and that's important for me:

1. I want to fully control my HA, and it's also easier if use 1 or 2 protocols instead of many
2. so I can debug inside
3. and I don't need to wait for an API update
4. and I can also fix a faulty hw as I've fun making my hw. But this is not the most valuable argument here, I agree, regarding such a cheap and simple sensor.

1 to 3 : solved by using a great and secure opensource lib... MySensors

But if i can make my devices looking great with 3d printer and a few tricks to improve look, more features or sensors, smaller, and the final cost not more than twice the price of a xia**i, . I'm happy to forget counting my time lol. But we're getting in connoisseur field I agree

[robosensor]

Ikea is also producing zigbee-compatible smart home components (TRÅDFRI series), including led lighting, dimmers, PIRs, ethernet gateways without cloud-based parts (can work w/o internet).

Starting from $11-$19 for dimmers/PIRs here in Poland.

[alowhum]

"From my personal experience, it will be failure and frustration that gets people down. They arrive at this site and it all looks really good.....until you come to try it and then you discover a whole nets of vipers just waiting."

I've been thinking that it would be nice to create a spinoff website for MySensors that focuses on ease of use and tried-an-tested solutions. Plug n play.

For example, a beautiful site with a few home automation staples, and with the best sensors to use for that scenario, and upload-and-go code. Ideally people wouldn't need to solder anything.

Then that site could be used for workshops on DIY, cheap and privacy friendly home automation, for example in libraries.

[gohan]

Not even all commercial product are tested, plug n play and easy to use. In the build section there are some ready solutions with code and suggested sensors to use.

[alowhum]

@gohan actually, a lot of the examples in the build section are out of date It caused a lot of unnecessary frustration. See this post I made earlier.

[scalz]

@alowhum said in Fewer home automation postings? What's behind it?:

"From my personal experience, it will be failure and frustration that gets people down. They arrive at this site and it all looks really good.....until you come to try it and then you discover a whole nets of vipers just waiting."

I've been thinking that it would be nice to create a spinoff website for MySensors that focuses on ease of use and tried-an-tested solutions. Plug n play.

For example, a beautiful site with a few home automation staples, and with the best sensors to use for that scenario, and upload-and-go code. Ideally people wouldn't need to solder anything.

Then that site could be used for workshops on DIY, cheap and privacy friendly home automation, for example in libraries.

that would just be reinventing the wheel, a no end wheel, imho.. Doesn't MySensors website already focus on these goals?

I think that would be better to improve what exists. If there are issues with some sketch, why not fix them?

About the 'whole net of vipers' someone mentioned..

Even if, in the best of world, people wouldn't need to solder anything nor programming, their device for 1buck (soon 'My HA for one buck' or better, 'My House for one buck' lol) I think they will always get some troubles if they don't read, learn etc..
Minimal skills and effort are needed. There are too much different hardware, setup etc to feed support for every case.
What I mean is you could try to build an alternative website for a some usecase, but you won't cover all newbie questions, else you would need to build another mysensors.org

But why not, feel free to create a more friendly, bug-free, up-to-date website. In this case you're brave because there is the core team, admins, for this job, which knows well the lib (better for reliable docs and advices), or help us to improve what exists

[gohan]

Developing new code, test it, update the web site and so on are time consuming activities and since MySensors is not a commercial product, there are not people spending the whole days doing all of them so something gets left behind inhevitably

[alowhum]

@gohan I actually did all that, but got a lot of pushback.

I created:

• An upgrade to the Dallas temperature sensor to make it non-blocking.
  https://forum.mysensors.org/topic/6395/new-non-blocking-temperature-sensor-code
• A new temperature node that uses the BME280, which I think should be the default recommended temperature/humidity/airpressure sensor.
  https://forum.mysensors.org/topic/6406/next-generation-temperature-sensor-for-mysensors/9
• A new dust sensor that uses a laser based sensor. This one actually works, is more precise, and allows uses to compare values because the fan is built-in (so everyone has the same fan = same airspeed).
  https://forum.mysensors.org/topic/6404/next-generation-dust-sensor-for-mysensors
• A new Co2 sensor
  https://forum.mysensors.org/topic/6528/mh-z19-co2-sensor/

[gohan]

Who pushed back?

[alowhum]

Let's not go into that.

[Sergio Rius]

In my opinion, and a way to leave this topic, I find the project is a bit uncoordinated. (There are some brilliant people there. That's out question)

I mean, we have the mysensors library, that needs slight configuration when used in nodes. But definitely one must set some things, as channel. (Other things are part of the hardware)
Then is signing and encryption. And it's understanding and use is not trivial.
Then nodemanager and mysbootloader.
Every "module" by its own.

The bootloader has the ability to rewrite the program in the node. It could be feasible to parametrize security and operation settings (in EEPROM?) and the bootloader set them initially only requiring radio settings being hard coded.
And those ones could be added as parameters to bootloader compilation.

That should make something more useable. But someone must have already thought about it. I'm not that clever.

I've already started some interesting things myself, but always abandon them by fear of project changing paths , little time to invest at the right moment, or simply not being a popular contributor.

I'm a .net programmer and been waiting the opportunity to do something for emby in this platform. If someone know about the recent "changes" in that project, will understand my sadness. So when I saw a not so friendly project I start to fear.

[rejoe2]

@alowhum
Some more personal remarks (hard to do in english, to be honest):

Reading your postings wrt. to the DS18B20 things and your enhancement proposals, I can somehow understand about your frustration. (The DS18B20 and BME280 I also use, so this is a part I can follow to some extend, other than a lot of other hardware you mentioned). I also suffered from changes in the libs that made it not to easy to get things going (routines from "the outer world" becoming private and so on). And some of the comments on your code in the mentioned thread are rather hard to understand or interpret.
As I also did one pull request in the past, I also know how high one's frustration tolerance has to be just to get through the necessary organisational process (including copyright questions and so on).

But: this is necessary stuff to go through... And the devs here are really doing a great job in quality assurance - at least imo.. But to be honest: It also took me quite a lot of time to find out, how difficult it in fact is to choose the right compromise between a lot of aspects.

Just one example: Your last proposal wrt. to temperature was to use BME280 as a future standard. Did you ever use more than 2 temp sensors on one node? Most likely not, as this is more or less only possible using the 1wire protocoll (I have around 25 of them on 3 nodes using 7 Pins as data lines).
And BME280: Try to compile the last version of the lib for ATMega328: It's broken... And the lib consumes way more memory (ok, to be honest: most likely most is for doing forecast calculations).
So please keep two things in mind:

• The two of us just see a small part of the world and are just about to start understanding how things really fit together. So going just one step after the next is best way to do. Don't be to eager, good ideas will find their way in the MySensors or Arduino code base.
• There are a lot of forums around, but only a few have the spirit you find here: If you ask your questions, you will most likely get a friendly answer that could bring your project forward!

So a big thank you to all the devs and mods around here! Great job!

[gohan]

Examples based on external libraries are also difficult to maintain as libraries change over time and after some months sketches could fail to compile. Personally I'd prefer SHT31 over BME280 because of accuracy and the internal heater to dry up the humidity sensors to get more precise readings.
Unfortunately working with nodes at this level it is not for beginners IMHO, you need some skills especially when it comes to debug problems: if you are not able to fix come compilation errors and understand how to debug a complex nodes network, you will eventually get stuck sooner or later.

[scalz]

Not always easy to find time
I just can say there are a lot of ideas, work in progress etc by MySensors team. to improve user experience, but I can't tell you more

@alowhum
maybe, you could:

• publish articles, howtos on openhardware or the forum so it could be easily linked in mysensors.org, and get feedbacks from the community etc
• PR on github when possible, there is a dedicated repo for mysensors sketch too
• do your own website, or blog etc where you would share your xp. sure why not

there are pros and cons I imagine. in each case you'll help people

[Sergio Rius]

@scalz said in Fewer home automation postings? What's behind it?:

I can't tell you more

Yes, that's what I was referring to. But anyways, I should be ignored again.

Edit: definitely should.

[NeverDie]

Intended as constructive criticism: I think more expressive diagnostics would go a long way toward helping newcomers troubleshoot what's going wrong with their particular situation. The serial output is cryptic to the uninitiated, and although there is a log parser, it seems incomplete and probably not very illuminating to newcomers.

Toward that end: I was very intrigued by someone's recent posted project that was a kind of connection "doctor" that would help diagnose. Seemed like it had a lot of potential and might even buttress the above. Anyone tried it?

[tbowmo]

@sergio-rius

there can be certain things preventing one disclosing projects.. Most of it is probably the fear of getting swarmed by requests about progress of the project, since it is so awesome that people just can't wait for it

Do remember, that we are all here using our (limited) sparetime, and have a lot of other activities going on as side projects as well.. For my part, I have about 1 hour a day during the evening, that I can devote to "Me time", that is for mysensors and all the other projects that I work on. And also trying to learn new skills, that could be useful for my daytime job :). And I do have way too many projects rolling at the moment.. And I know that @scalz is not on the lazy side as well, when it comes to fun projects that take up his time..

[Sergio Rius]

Of course, projects are always difficult to manage and often they must be completely flipped like an omelet.
But what seems recurrent is that only a small group of people knows whats the next step in development. So someone starts doing anything and by the time he wants to pr discovers that the sources had changed path and what he has done, now doesn't make sense. Or simply, opinions and ideas are ignored as they happen to be incompatible or undesirable for the (secret) idea of the project.
I think is something inherent with open source projects. But sometimes is discouraging.
I think it may be solutions for publishing wanted changes and preventing people annoying developers.
I would like a future where desired functionalities would be published in a list and anyone could sign for doing them.

Sorry if words look rough, I assure is not intended, I still have problems with the english.

[NeverDie]

It's hard to complain if the price is "free."

[rejoe2]

@sergio-rius You know about the MySenors roadmap? It's open visible to everybody here: https://github.com/mysensors/MySensors/projects. Aint't that the sort of "list" you were thinking of?

Not being part of the dev community, but most likely there are no "hidden side projects", so in case you have additional ideas for the roadmap, feel free to open an issue on github .

But most likely we are far OT by now here.

[Sergio Rius]

@neverdie If you are referring to me, no. I'm not complaining. Just wanting to contribute but I'm to slow to take the train in time. Sorry if seemed anything else.

[Sergio Rius]

@rejoe2 No, I didn't see this. Been out more than a year by an accident and I'm still getting used to all the changes.
Thanks!

[rejoe2]

@sergio-rius Sorry for the somehow misleading referer: Meant was : "Me not beeing ..."

[alexsh1]

Just my 2 cents
What @NeverDie is saying is true - it may be seasonal or just a decline trend very hard to say.
I do see this across all HA forums.
Firstly, a normal temp/hum node is not exciting any more - it has to be more intellegent. Like Alexa, please tell me ...
Another thing is that generally with social media development, I did notice a lot of forums activity has declined or simply stopped.

Let’s not forget that there are many plug and plug HA solutions and DIY may not appeal to all people

[gohan]

DIY in HA requires a lot of skills to be put together: I don't know many people with programming background, electronics, soldering, electrical work, computers, networking and so on. In addition if you start looking at machine learning to make stuff actually smart, that would kill everyone enthusiasm

[Sergio Rius]

@gohan +1 to that.

My father was electrician and tought me something. I'm programmer and I also do lots of database and network design and management... And I can assure you that combining skills needed for today's ha development is not trivial.

It's because microcontrollers language and flashing methods. If powerful and efficient ones that could run any Java or lua like language, loaded through simple Bluetooth were developed, the situation would radically change.

[alexsh1]

@gohan That's true, but I am talking about "Wow" factor. Remember the first iPhone? When I got my first iPhone 4, it was quite something. Now, I am looking at the same phone and saying how come I liked it? The same is here. 5 years ago a remote temperature sensor was - WOW! Now, this is just a sensor. I am sure you have plenty of these around.

The question is what incentives newbies have to learn all those skills you mentioned vs plug&play devices available where no learning/DIY is required. There is a video on the youtube about a guy doing DIY mobile iPhone from components in China upgrading a flash memory from 16Gb to 128Gb just to prove that this can be done.

How I Made My Own iPhone - in China – 23:49
— Strange Parts

[gohan]

sure sonoff e xiaomi devices are indeed cheap and ready to use (sonoff allow some hacking though) and in fact they allow to do some DIY HA for less skilled people

[Sergio Rius]

@alexsh1 Truly, but that's what it's meant to be.

[alexsh1]

When I was doing electronics at school, Plug&play devices just did not exist.

There is choice right now.

[gohan]

Actually zwave, x10, zigbee and enocean devices have been on the market for some years if you wanted some HA and they are plug&play (they stil require someone with Electrical skills), but 50$ a piece didn't make them very affordable for everyone

[NeverDie]

I think what most people wanted wasn't actually HA but rather remote control. And now they have it, via the myriad of devices that can now be controlled via their smart phone or Alexa.

[alexsh1]

@neverdie This is how I started. I needed a remote for hot water heating (when returning from vocation)

[alowhum]

I've been working on a small demonstrator site to get some discussion going about how to make MySensors more appealing to beginners. It's meant as a discussion piece for now. Curious to hear your thoughts.

http://www.cloakingcompany.com/home/

[alexsh1]

@gohan my school days were long before that. Even 486 was not out yet.
The PC I used at school had 16kb of memory and I used a Hifi tape to load a simple program for 5 mins

[gohan]

I had a C64 with tapes

[alexsh1]

@gohan said in Fewer home automation postings? What's behind it?:

I had a C64 with tapes

Commondore was a luxury (64Kb of RAM!!!!). Only one out of many had it at home

[tbowmo]

@gohan @alexsh1

I had a lambda8300 (zx81 clone) as my first computer 2kb ram, I had a expansion module with a whopping 32kb of ram. this was mid 80's. In 1988 I got a C64. Ahh the nostalgia

[zboblamont]

@tbowmo Hah, you were lucky, I finally upgraded from the monochrome to colour...

[Nca78]

@tbowmo said in Fewer home automation postings? What's behind it?:

I had a lambda8300 (zx81 clone) as my first computer 2kb ram, I had a expansion module with a whopping 32kb of ram. this was mid 80's. In 1988 I got a C64. Ahh the nostalgia

Enough to run MySensors, we should have a Z80 version with serial transport. Or infrared for a full wireless experience on the Canon X-07 I typed my first programming lines on.
That thing was awesome, very well built, portable and with advanced features allowing some very original use:
https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=eAAAAAAAMBAJ&pg=PA56&dq=Canon+X-07&hl=sv&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjmvILvtoXSAhXJAMAKHfYhBQ0Q6AEIJDAC#v=onepage&q=Canon X-07&f=false

[Yveaux]

@nca78 First port Arduino to it

Btw, nice magazine link

It show Tesla's predecessor:

and some saw add-on (not sure if it would pass today's safety standards though )

[alexsh1]

@zboblamont Good for you. I still play with these:

[NeverDie]

@alexsh1 By "play" I hope you mean making them, not riding them!

[alexsh1]

@neverdie Nope! I meant riding

[zboblamont]

@alexsh1 You will go far....

[alowhum]

So.. no reaction on the little demo website I created?

https://www.cloakingcompany.com/home

[Nca78]

@alowhum said in Fewer home automation postings? What's behind it?:

So.. no reaction on the little demo website I created?

https://www.cloakingcompany.com/home

It seems nice (can't see everything as it's extremely slow to load, probably due to my shitty internet connection), this could be a great starting point for beginners. A list of simple tutorial with a cleaner and much more modern looking UI that current website and a commercially available arduino/nrf24 adapter could go a long way to ease adoption of MySensors.
The only problem I see is it's based on an atmega setup which will probably soon be deprecated for MySensors.

[alowhum]

@nca78 said in Fewer home automation postings? What's behind it?:

The only problem I see is it's based on an atmega setup which will probably soon be deprecated for MySensors.

Yes that is an issue. For now I'm trying to keep the sketches so simple that the simple signing and encryption feature will still work. I read that in MySensors 2.3 a goal was to make the encryption and signing features use less ram, so there might still be some life left in the Nano

I also found an STM32 board that has a NRF socket built in. But that has to be manually soldered, and it also make sensors less easy to connect (fewer GND and VCC pins).