💬 Button size radionode with sensors swarm extension

[yury]

@alexsh1 said in Button size radionode with sensors swarm extension:

Something else is eating up a few milliamps

yes seems your board has bad capacitors. After rechecking many boards we found one eating a lot - 0.4 mA. Replacing caps fixed issue.

can you check?

[alexsh1]

@yury There are two yellow caps in your photo. Do I have to change both of them? What's nominal please?

EDIT: both are 107J SMD Tantalum

[alexsh1]

@yury I was suspecting EEPROM (CS pin with pull-up resistor?) to be a culprit

[yury]

combined capacitance of booth should be 100 --200 microfarads . It is input capacitors.
please try replacing them

re:
I was suspecting EEPROM (CS pin with pull-up resistor?) to be a culprit

not pullups...

[yury]

0.4 ma here with the bad cap

[Koresh]

@alexsh1 you can solder one or two capacitors ~50-200uf. But you should remove both because we do not know which of them is bad. Do not forget about polarity Dot-key on the board means positive, so tantalum has positive key, but electrolitic capacitors has negative key.

[alexsh1]

@Koresh thanks. It does not matter which caps, right?
I have a few 1206 100uF ceramic caps. They are not polarised and may be a good fit size wise

[alexsh1]

@yury what's your estimate of battery life based on a new consumption of about 25uA and the default sketch?

[yury]

@alexsh1 220 mAh(Duracell) / 0.025 (mA) = 8800 hrs = 366 days.

[Koresh]

@alexsh1 There is no problem to use your capacitors. 1206imp = 3216metric (type A) so they are fit perfect
About consumption... This is quite universal board. If you plan to use CR2032 battery it can be worth to omit LDO. You can do it using existing 0603 jumper footprint near right storage capacitor.

[alexsh1]

@yury said in Button size radionode with sensors swarm extension:

@alexsh1 220 mAh(Duracell) / 0.025 (mA) = 8800 hrs = 366 days.

Not exactly - 25uA is a sleeping current.
There will be sending periods every 10 mins.
So I suppose the lifetime is less than a year

[alexsh1]

@Koresh yes, I'm using it with the 2032 battery.
Which pads to your refer to please?

[yury]

@alexsh1

@alexsh1 said in Button size radionode with sensors swarm extension:

@yury said in Button size radionode with sensors swarm extension:

@alexsh1 220 mAh(Duracell) / 0.025 (mA) = 8800 hrs = 366 days.

Not exactly - 25uA is a sleeping current.
There will be sending periods every 10 mins.
So I suppose the lifetime is less than a year

Yes, it is sleeping time estimate. When it wakes up it compares first, like : if ( abs(d) > 50 ) send(msg_vis.set(VIS_LIGHT), true); so it might send or not.
But this is just example sketch and you are very welcome to create pull-request or make suggestion how to improve.

[Koresh]

@alexsh1 You can fit juper (or any small wire, R10 on the schematic) or remove LDO at all and short top two pads.

[alexsh1]

@yury ok, you took the best case scenario (no messages as all) and if we take worst case scenario - sending every 10 mins in any case (suppose no if statement).

Then we take life time somewhere in between.
I think it make sense to take 18uA as a sleeping current removing the LDO from equation

[alexsh1]

@Koresh said in Button size radionode with sensors swarm extension:

@alexsh1 You can fit juper (or any small wire, R10 on the schematic) or remove LDO at all and short top two pads.

More neat solution is to remove LDO and solder 0 ohm resistor (R10). Looks nice

Ok, 18uA - this is more like it.
Thank you very much for helping to get it sorted. Now I need to understand why the consumption has gone when using Si1132

@yury Did you test power consumption of modules with Si1132 please? I hope it was a bad soldering on my side

[alexsh1]

@yury I suggest we use this:

http://oregonembedded.com/batterycalc.htm

Based on non-LDO board consumption of 18uA the battery life assuming constant updates 10 mins and 140ms wake-up time (120ms is needed by bh1750) is 1.03 years. Excellent

[yury]

@alexsh1 said in Button size radionode with sensors swarm extension:

Did you test power consumption of modules with Si1132 please? I hope it was a bad soldering on my side

Could not find good code to send it to sleep. without it Si1132 was eating a lot...

[alexsh1]

@yury Hmmmm. Datasheet is stating that the standby current < 500 nA

However, actively measuring current - 4.5mA
This would kill 2032 very quickly

[alexsh1]

@Koresh another alternative would be using Si1145 it is pin-for-pin compatible with Si1132 and

This low-power sensing family enables long battery life with standby less than 500 nA and an average power of as little as 1.2 uA with once per second real-time UV Index measurements.

However, I still think that Si1132 can be working with the battery nicely. 0x18 register is a key:

The COMMAND Register is the primary mailbox register into the internal sequencer. Writing to the COMMAND register is the only I2C operation that wakes the device from standby mode.

The only question is how to put the sensor into the standby mode after all measurements are taken

[Nca78]

@alexsh1 said in Button size radionode with sensors swarm extension:

However, actively measuring current - 4.5mA
This would kill 2032 very quickly

Matter of hours I guess, it's half more than the max continuous discharge current of a CR2032.

[alexsh1]

@Nca78 said in Button size radionode with sensors swarm extension:

@alexsh1 said in Button size radionode with sensors swarm extension:

However, actively measuring current - 4.5mA
This would kill 2032 very quickly

Matter of hours I guess, it's half more than the max continuous discharge current of a CR2032.

It is 4.mA for 120ms for less just for measurements
However, I agree that this is not very battery friendly

[Nca78]

@alexsh1 said in Button size radionode with sensors swarm extension:

@Nca78 said in Button size radionode with sensors swarm extension:

@alexsh1 said in Button size radionode with sensors swarm extension:

However, actively measuring current - 4.5mA
This would kill 2032 very quickly

Matter of hours I guess, it's half more than the max continuous discharge current of a CR2032.

It is 4.mA for 120ms for less just for measurements
However, I agree that this is not very battery friendly

Ah ok I completely misunderstood But yes seems high for a CR2032 sensor...

[Terrence]

This post is deleted!

[Abdu Sahin]

@Koresh,
I tried to buy some of these on the link you provided, but couldn't do it. Do you still have this component in your stock ? I like to buy 865mhz HW/W versions.

[yury]

@Abdu-Sahin said in Button size radionode with sensors swarm extension:

865mhz HW/

Hi

They will be ready end of this week. do you need both HCW and CW versions?

[Abdu Sahin]

@yury
I like to try both 865 HW/W versions. I need sensors with long battery life and good RF distance coverage for my project. I've noticed some people suggested using only 'W' version for battery powered nodes, but from my initial experience I didn't have good distance with 'W' version.

[yury]

@Abdu-Sahin said in Button size radionode with sensors swarm extension:

I need sensors with long battery life and good RF distance coverage

)) either good battery life or good coverage though... or good coverage and 2-3 AA batteries. CW is 20 mA when sending signal and HCW is about 100 mA. CR2032 battery will be drained by HCW pretty fast.
HW/W versions have bigger footprints (Module Size:19.7X16mm) and not compatible with the "Button size".
HCW/CW (Module Size:16X16mm) are equivalents for HW/W.

[Abdu Sahin]

@yury
I think I can start with CW version as start. Battery life is important for me.

[yury]

@Abdu-Sahin said in Button size radionode with sensors swarm extension:

Battery life is important

sent you a message in the chat...

[Abdu Sahin]

@yury
You can email me if you like.
My email is uk.asahin at gmail com

[Terrence]

@Abdu-Sahin I was interested in reading your conversation about battery life etc. I hope you will continue the conversation on the forum instead of in private.

Thanks.

[Miroslav Kadaně]

It is possible to buy only PCB ? Upload PCB to OSH Park, or send PCB in eagle. I do not have Altium Designer... Thx

[Koresh]

@Miroslav-Kadaně I've just uploaded latest gerbers (rfm reset pin was connected to controller, connection of si1132 was fixed, reverse battery polarity protection was added). You can place PCB order at any factory.

[chbla]

Maybe a stupid question but how do you connect the FTDI adapter? I only know the ISP pins

[getlarge]

@yury @koresh

Few months ago, I've ordered some of your nodes, which work perfectly by the way, but I needed something that could speed up testing of any sensors.
So following our conversation on Github with Yury, I've created a PCB based on your Button size node, with a field for an extension board. The aim is to have a versatile board, and extensions that could handle virtually any sensors, like NodeManager project, but for hardware
And it's also a first time experiment in the land of PCBs

Apart 2 errors ( maybe more in the future !), it seems to be well routed, as tests been proving, but i still not tried the FOTA function.
Errors was a badly routed button and it seems that, after the RFM chip is soldered, communication with USBasp gets bad! Is it because SCK and MISO route ( from pin headers to atmega328 ) goes through the RFM chip before atmega ?

You were mentioning some mods in dualoptiboot in order to flash M25P40, https://forum.mysensors.org/topic/3160/ota-flash-types-for-mysensors/43.
Would it be possible to share these ?

And just out of curiosity, how did you manage to solder SI7021 and TSL2561 ?
By now, it seems like a mystery for me...

[Koresh]

@getlarge said in Button size radionode with sensors swarm extension:

after the RFM chip is soldered, communication with USBasp gets bad

Did you solder R4 (from your schematic https://github.com/getlarge/Cosmonode/blob/master/Cosmonode_sch.pdf)? I can't find it on the boards photo.
PS
Will share compiled bootloader and sources soon.

[getlarge]

@Koresh said in Button size radionode with sensors swarm extension:

Sorry, picture's quality is not too good!
R4 ( 10Kohm) is soldered. I read about that pullup resistor that is needed to sync with atmega SCK. Any other hint on what could cause that ?
Maybe, that was a mistake when i changed the fuse? but I didn't have problem before with these settings.

So I'll have to be patient to use M25P40!

[chbla]

@chbla said in Button size radionode with sensors swarm extension:

Maybe a stupid question but how do you connect the FTDI adapter? I only know the ISP pins

Can anyone quickly tell me how to do it correctly? I thought it didn't work but I'm unsure.

[Koresh]

@chbla This board has standard FTDI header (see attached screenshot).

But it also has all of ISP pins (mosi, miso, sck, rst)

[hiddenuser]

@Koresh Might be a dumb question I am planning to work on this board, where do I find the complete part list.

[hiddenuser]

Does any one have links to dirty pcb or OSH Park? Thanks a lot

[NeverDie]

^^^warning: it's an infiltration bot.

[Miroslav Kadaně]

This post is deleted!

[hiddenuser]

@NeverDie Not sure if you are referring to me?

[hiddenuser]

@Miroslav-Kadaně Thanks!!

[hiddenuser]

I do not have an electronics background. I wend through the pdf files and order the parts and looks like I got the wrong resistor and capacitor or wrong part. Looks like I have to wait for an expert to comment let me know which resistor/capacitor goes where what part size. I would love to hear from someone

[Miroslav Kadaně]

@koresh it is possible to buy this adapter (RFM69HCW -> RFM69CW) or download pcb files ?
Thx

[NeverDie]

@miroslav-kadaně said in Button size radionode with sensors swarm extension:

@koresh it is possible to buy this adapter or download pcb files ?
Thx

Go to this link and press the download button: https://www.openhardware.io/view/299/Button-size-radionode-with-sensors-swarm-extension

[Miroslav Kadaně]

@neverdie thx, but i need adapter from RFM69HCW to RFM69CW

[yury]

Re: Button size radionode with sensors swarm extension

2 cr2032 winter upgrade - works nice

Keep working at -20 Celsius in a fridge. voltage dropped from 6 Volts to 5V and keeps pretty stable while sending temperature reading every 2 minutes for 2 days now.

[Koresh]

There are so many reasons to use two CR2032 batteries in series with power converter instead of one lager battery like 2450
-CR2032 are much more widespread batteries
-Wider temperature range
-Stable voltage during all battery lifetime (using voltage converter)
-Stable radio power during battery lifetime
-Batteries give less current during transmitting so they are not "shocked" by high current.

So I plan to create version with two CR2032 batteries holder (like on the Yury's photo) and the ultra high efficiency DC-DC converter based on the tps62745 (400 nA quiescent current, 90% efficiency)

[NeverDie]

The main problem is finding a button holder that can hold two CR2032's in series. So far I've only found two. One is made by Linx, but it's definitely not ideal:

The other works fine, but it has a larger footprint, so I'm not presently using it. It may work well on your board, though, because your board is square, so you can use the diagonal:


On the other hand, maybe you could bend down the tabs and use it as a through-hole?
I did one where I simply cut-off the tabs and then soldered it to the board. That works, but it leaves me with an uneasy feeling as to how long it might last in that configuration. Maybe it's worth re-visiting.

[yury]

@neverdie said in Button size radionode with sensors swarm extension:

worth

uh... apparently, yes. dual dip cr2032 is hard to find item on ali.

[Miroslav Kadaně]

@koresh Hello,
can you please update pcbdoc and schdoc files ?
And add a pcb adapter from RFM69HCW to RFM69CW ?
Thx Mirek

[Koresh]

@miroslav-kadaně
Hello Mirek. All source files are actual, I used exactly the same files to produce latest stable version. I never share source files until I test the board. So I will share updated files (like on the latest screenshot or better) after the board will be checked and tested
PS
I've added rfm converter board.

[chbla]

With the default sensor and sketch I only get integer values - shouldn't this be decimals with 2 digits after the . ?
Not sure if I have a different lib or missed something

[chbla]

This post is deleted!

[chbla]

What's the typical time you get with the default node, coin cell and the sketch on github?
https://gist.github.com/solars/6116b78ea7ee581ecfafddb8da4a9610

It drained within only 1 day for me

[gohan]

is it sleeping 5 seconds only?

[chbla]

@gohan said in Button size radionode with sensors swarm extension:

is it sleeping 5 seconds only?

You are right, that was my mistake after testing it. However, the consumption still seems high.
For example I'm right now testing a BME280 which I want to use in the future, with the following sketch:
https://gist.github.com/solars/a5302f1cb60d90f89d7e37d5e23f8c4d

It's connected to SDA/SCL and GND/V - somehow the voltage it receives with a fresh battery is already quite low, and it also doesn't last very long.

[gohan]

you need to try to measure current while the sensor is sleeping as it should be a few uA maximum

[chbla]

@gohan I only have a normal multimeter - what's the best way to do this?
I came across https://www.eevblog.com/projects/ucurrent/ a while ago, is it worth it?

[gohan]

There is a project in openhardware for a current meter if you want to build one, or you could buy a newer multimeter if the one you have can not measure uA

[yury]

@chbla said in Button size radionode with sensors swarm extension:

multimeter

You should be fine even with a cheap multi-meter as long as it has uA scale.

should be around 7-10 uA and if you do not send JDEC to sleep it is 17 -19 uA.

to send JDEC to sleep\wakeup I use
_flash.wakeup();
_flash.sleep();

light sensor should be sent to sleep explicitly also.

[gohan]

@yury not really, I have bought an Aneng cheap multimeter, but if I connect it with uA scale selected it will go out of range during node boot and cut the circuit making measurement impossible (unless you do something fancy that would make it unpractical)

[yury]

@gohan said in Button size radionode with sensors swarm extension:

selected it will go out of range during node boot and cut the circuit making measurement impossible

my cheap one survives 20mA surge (RFM69 CW version) of initial communications and displays good reading afterwards. if you burned fuse inside, try replacing it temporarily with some thin wire for this uA tests.

[gohan]

I have another cheap one that works. I didn't blow the fuse since turning it off and on it works again, it must be a software limitation

[chbla]

@yury said in Button size radionode with sensors swarm extension:

@chbla said in Button size radionode with sensors swarm extension:

multimeter

You should be fine even with a cheap multi-meter as long as it has uA scale.

should be around 7-10 uA and if you do not send JDEC to sleep it is 17 -19 uA.

to send JDEC to sleep\wakeup I use
_flash.wakeup();
_flash.sleep();

light sensor should be sent to sleep explicitly also.

Right - but this is all in your sketch right? This is what I used:
https://gist.github.com/solars/a5302f1cb60d90f89d7e37d5e23f8c4d

[chbla]

@Koresh would it be possible to sell this without the sensor part and RFM69? How many orders would it need?
I don't have the possibility to produce it myself, don't need the sensors part and have a lot of RFM69s lying around..

Thank you,
Christoph

[anovak]

I downloaded gerber files.
Error Message from PCB Manufacturer:
The NC drill layer does not match with the pads of copper layer.

Thank you,
Attila

[Koresh]

@anovak
Hello. Do you mean main board or rfm69 adapter? It is very strange. I produced exactly these gerbers many time.

[Koresh]

Finally I have a little time to continue this project...
High efficient dc-dc converter works nice and double cr2032 are good. Lets go to the furher tests!

[anovak]

Thanks. The problem was solved.
Manufactured at very low cost on pcbway, they are manufactured with "Min Track / Spacing: 5 / 5mil".
Do you have any idea where they are manufactured cheaper?

[Koresh]

New version with double battery holder and power convertor works nice.
Power consumption in sleep mode is less than 9uA

I will test it soon..

[alexsh1]

@koresh You only have two sensors BH1750 and Si7021. Did you try to have all four sensors and measure consumption?

[anovak]

Which pcb manufacturer do you recommend?
I asked for a quote from Pcbway but it was expensive.
The reason was:
Change the 'Min Track / Spacing' value from 6 / 6mil to 5 / 5mil.

Sorry for my bad English.

[Koresh]

@anovak Unfortunately you can reduce the price of the board only if you order more boards.

[anovak]

What price can be made in 10 items?

[gohan]

@anovak if you mean 10K maybe you can have a discount

[anovak]

10 would be needed for the current project
At pcbway, the total cost of production and shipping costs is $ 34.
Is there someone who does it at a lower price?
Business account required.

I apologize for asking this question in this topic.
What type of transformer do you use and where to get it for the Mini Relay Box?

[Omemanti]

@anovak do you want them completely assembled?

Yesterday I ordered 2 plain PCB's from seeedstudios, cost me 20 dollars incl, shipping. paid more for shipping than for the PCB's themselves.

but for the size, these units are you can get 6 or more in one design.

[anovak]

Only PCBs are needed.

[Koresh]

@anovak I use in mini relay box the same transormer as in wall switch insertable node. Please read this comment https://forum.mysensors.org/topic/3938/wall-socket-insertable-node/57

[A Former User]

Can we buy it fully assembled and what would it cost?

[yury]

@kenci

Yes, in a week or so. Even with plastic enclosure ))

[A Former User]

@yury what would the price be for the fully assembled board?

[yury]

@kenci

EUR 18 the board with SI7021 and BH1750. extra 1EUR for enclosure if someone need it.

[MiKa]

Please link for enclosure

[Koresh]

@mika Can't find white enclosure now. You can find black here https://ru.aliexpress.com/item/50-28-15mm-black-small-case-junction-box-DIY-electronic-box-instrument-shell-enclosures/32816171702.html?spm=a2g0v.search0104.3.7.695b35fcke4Os7&ws_ab_test=searchweb0_0,searchweb201602_2_10152_10151_10065_10344_10068_5722815_10342_10343_10340_5722915_10341_5711416_5722615_10696_10084_10083_10618_10307_5722715_5711215_10059_308_100031_10103_5711515_10624_10623_10622_5711315_5722515_10621_10620_10125,searchweb201603_25,ppcSwitch_5&algo_expid=82d68252-5f35-47c6-a438-13925ec12b35-1&algo_pvid=82d68252-5f35-47c6-a438-13925ec12b35&transAbTest=ae803_1&priceBeautifyAB=0

[Koresh]

First batch of the latest version is ready

[pepson]

Can you share elemnts for version RFM69HW ? I see only PCB files but i dont know whatr i must have elements...

[pepson]

And what is size gold pins ? 2.54 ?

[pepson]

And anybody what pin should be wire to activate programming... ? In arduino pro mini is dedicated micro switch. In this dont have microswitch and i want add microswitch. It should be RST connected to GND ? please help...

[Koresh]

@pepson said in Button size radionode with sensors swarm extension:

And what is size gold pins ? 2.54 ?

Yes, 2.54

@pepson said in Button size radionode with sensors swarm extension:

And anybody what pin should be wire to activate programming... ? In arduino pro mini is dedicated micro switch. In this dont have microswitch and i want add microswitch. It should be RST connected to GND ? please help...

Programming is activated via DTR pin automatically.

@pepson said in Button size radionode with sensors swarm extension:

Can you share elemnts for version RFM69HW ? I see only PCB files but i dont know whatr i must have elements...

Schematic of the first version is available. Will share schematic version of ButtonSizeNode_V2 (with dc-dc) later.

[pepson]

But please share a list element what capacity and resistor and other and with what body. Ex 0805 etc.

But for programming i dont need push/wire RST with GND ?

Explaine me how works Programming is activated via DTR pin automatically ??

And what is ButtonSizeNode_V2 (with dc-dc) ?? What is diffrent to v1 ?

[alexsh1]

@pepson said in Button size radionode with sensors swarm extension:

But for programming i dont need push/wire RST with GND ?

Explaine me how works Programming is activated via DTR pin automatically ??

No, no need to connect RST with GND.
DTR works automatically - as soon as you press upload in your Arduino IDE, it starts uploading the sketch to the atmega328p. Simple

[Koresh]

@pepson said in Button size radionode with sensors swarm extension:

And what is ButtonSizeNode_V2 (with dc-dc) ?? What is diffrent to v1 ?

https://github.com/EasySensors/ButtonSizeNode
https://github.com/EasySensors/ButtonSizeNode2

@pepson said in Button size radionode with sensors swarm extension:

But please share a list element what capacity and resistor and other and with what body. Ex 0805 etc.

Will try to share soon. Almost all elements are 0402.

[alexsh1]

@koresh said in [ Button size radionode with sensors swarm extension]>

Will try to share soon. Almost all elements are 0402.

Wow! I have been struggling with 0603 size. You must have eagle's eyes

[pepson]

But v2 is also for radio RFM69HW ?