nRF5 action!
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@gohan said in Minimalist SAMD21 TQFP32 Pro Mini:
I found it on some modules from Sunfounder on red PCB but they have fake nrf24 chip and still performed bad but a little better than the other chinese clones (range 7 meters indoor instead of 5)
Interestingly, the antenna on the DK is sort-of hockey stick shaped. I guess they didn't need to compress it, since the board is so large anyway.
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am reading your findings with great interest. Thanks for the updates.
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@NeverDie said in Minimalist SAMD21 TQFP32 Pro Mini:
You're right. Especially after outfitting the atmega328p with an RTC, the cost is more of a wash. I think the RFM still wins on range, but maybe the 832 will be "good enough"...
The question is, when 832 modules are available. After announcing the nRF52832 with its preview DK, I have waited from 06/2015 to 08/2016 until modules are available for an acceptable price at aliexpress or ebay.
I think the atmega is a slow 8-bit MCU with less RAM. The limited RAM requires to transmit additional nonce packages, when signing is enabled. SoftSigning hashing is 76 times faster. A faster CPU allows to shorten the active time:
- atmega328 14000µs
- nRF51 1739µS
- ESP8266 380µS
- nRF52 183µS
The NRF24 has problems with clones, range and the limitation of packages to 32 bytes. The nRF52 allows to change the packet format to support >32 bytes packages.
At the moment sleep modes are only implemented for 328 and nRF5.
OTA updates are available for 328 and ESP8266. For nRF5 it requires to implement a boot loader. The internal flash should have enough capacity to store a simple bootloader and a firmware update.
If you plan to do a lot of writes into EEPROM the 328 has a real EEPROM. The SAMD requires an external EEPROM, the nRF5/Teensy/STM32F emulating the eeprom in Flash. The nRF5 is using the NVM driver, which allows much more writes to the emulated EEPROM. The price for NVM is some time for log cleaning after some hundreds writes.
IMHO the best MCU for creating new battery powered sensors is the nRF5 stating with a ~3€ board, if required in combination with RFM modules.
@NeverDie said in Minimalist SAMD21 TQFP32 Pro Mini:
I'm guessing that if I were to desolder the rFM52832 from the DK, then I could use the DK to program other chips using the SW pins by using the J-link that's part of the board.
I think it's simpler to use one of the ST-LINK v2 clones. The DK board should be good for development, debugging and current measurement.
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@d00616 said in Minimalist SAMD21 TQFP32 Pro Mini:
I think it's simpler to use one of the ST-LINK v2 clones. The DK board should be good for development, debugging and current measurement.
What exactly do I need to do to get it work? I tried it from Windows, and failed. I seem to recall you said you got it to work from Linux after changing a definition. Would you mind showing the steps, or providing a link on how to do that?
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@d00616 said in Minimalist SAMD21 TQFP32 Pro Mini:
IMHO the best MCU for creating new battery powered sensors is the nRF5 stating with a ~3€ board, if required in combination with RFM modules.
The board you linked to is an nRF51. Which do you prefer? nRF51 or nRF52?
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Looks as though the nRF52832 beats the nRF51832 on Rx sensitivity at 1mbps. The nRF51832 is:
• -90 dBm at 1 Mbps
versus -93dBm at 1Mbps for the nRF52832.On the other hand, the nRF51832 has -96dBm receive sensitivity at 250kbps, and the nRF52832 appears to lack that mode altogether. So, in a way, that make sthe nRF51832 seem a bit more attractive on range, even if one has to pay a price on bitrate.
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@d00616 Now that you mention it, that board you linked to ( https://www.aliexpress.com/item/BLE4-0-Bluetooth-2-4GHz-Wireless-Module-NRF51822-Board-Core51822-B/32633417101.html?spm=2114.search0104.3.18.Q9naea&ws_ab_test=searchweb0_0,searchweb201602_5_10152_10065_10151_10068_10130_10084_10083_10119_10080_10082_10081_10110_10178_10136_10137_10111_10060_10112_10113_10155_10114_5360016_10154_438_10056_10055_10054_10182_10059_100031_10099_10078_10079_10103_10073_10102_10120_10189_10052_10053_10142_10107_10050_10051,searchweb201603_5,ppcSwitch_4&btsid=f45d662b-6a09-4449-9bee-1ea58d9beab8&algo_expid=53f99b5d-bb10-4b34-a548-2a3e4c0cd96e-2&algo_pvid=53f99b5d-bb10-4b34-a548-2a3e4c0cd96e ) would be an interesting way to control an RFM69, especially if it could do an OTA sketch uploade. Can it?
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@NeverDie said in Minimalist SAMD21 TQFP32 Pro Mini:
The board you linked to is an nRF51. Which do you prefer? nRF51 or nRF52?
I prefer to use nRF52 controllers when the price doesn't matter.
@NeverDie said in Minimalist SAMD21 TQFP32 Pro Mini:
Now that you mention it, that board you linked to would be an interesting way to control an RFM69, especially if it could do an OTA sketch uploade. Can it?
OTA sketch upload is on my todo list, but not at the first position
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@NeverDie said in Minimalist SAMD21 TQFP32 Pro Mini:
On the other hand, the nRF51832 has -96dBm receive sensitivity at 250kbps, and the nRF52832 appears to lack that mode altogether.
The 250kbps mode is working with the nRF5232 but this was the last chip supporting this mode.
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This module is interesting because it looks as though it would be relatively easy to attach to most simple sensor projects:
https://www.aliexpress.com/store/product/NRF52832-Bluetooth-4-2-module-Bluetooth-5-program-PCBA-serial-transmission-cost-effective/1383441_32818791344.html
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I found some useful connectors:
1.27mm pitch seems to be what's most common with nRF52 stuff.
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what would you use those connectors for?
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@gohan said in Minimalist SAMD21 TQFP32 Pro Mini:
what would you use those connectors for?
The J-Tag ones for connecting a J-tag programmer to an nRF5 board (e.g. the adafruit one has holes for such a 2x5 connector already on its PCB).
The 1.27mm headers I think I might use for connecting some of the small nRF5 boards which have 1.27mm pitch through-holes onto some prototypes rather than just soldering them down. That way I can easily move them to the next version of the prototype without creating a lot of desoldering work.
I've ordered all of the above earlier today. I'm just providing the links in case others may want to do the same.
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@NeverDie Thanks for the nrf link, but I liked the units with coin cell better. I purchased 2.
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Attractive form factor, but I believe that it's just a beacon. If not, how do you connect it to anything?
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@Terrence said in Minimalist SAMD21 TQFP32 Pro Mini:
@NeverDie Thanks for the nrf link, but I liked the units with coin cell better. I purchased 2.
This module looks great. Both oscillators and the inductor is placed ob board. But the SWDIO and SDCLK are not connected. You can only flash via OTA update. Don't flash MySensors until you have moved the used Flash by NVM driver. The NVM would overwrite the DFU bootloader. It's possible that the nRF5 code needs changes to support running on an nRF5 with Softdevice.
@scalz is playing/plans to play with Nordics OTA update.
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A couple more interesting finds.
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This one is small but includes a PA, so you can allegedly get 20dBm+ in TX:
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/PTR5618PA-Nordic-nRF52832-Module-PA-module-BLE-4-0-Module-Free-shipping/32761051086.html?spm=2114.search0104.3.9.W4RMn3&ws_ab_test=searchweb0_0,searchweb201602_5_10152_10065_10151_10068_10130_9947_10084_10083_10119_10080_10082_10081_10136_10110_10178_10137_10111_10060_10112_10113_10155_10114_10154_438_10056_10055_10054_10182_10059_100031_10099_10078_10079_10103_10073_10102_10120_5360020_10189_10052_10053_10142_10107_10050_10051-9947,searchweb201603_5,ppcSwitch_4&btsid=66711830-6dac-41e4-9674-fe24475ac9f5&algo_expid=4a176404-eb42-4313-9eae-531e59e60ccf-1&algo_pvid=4a176404-eb42-4313-9eae-531e59e60ccf -
This one allegedly includes not only a PA, but an LNA too:
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/nRF52832-LNA-PA-Range-Extension-EV-Board-best-sol-for-the-coming-Bluetooth-5-0-and/32778491443.html?spm=2114.search0104.3.2.W4RMn3&ws_ab_test=searchweb0_0,searchweb201602_5_10152_10065_10151_10068_10130_9947_10084_10083_10119_10080_10082_10081_10136_10110_10178_10137_10111_10060_10112_10113_10155_10114_10154_438_10056_10055_10054_10182_10059_100031_10099_10078_10079_10103_10073_10102_10120_5360020_10189_10052_10053_10142_10107_10050_10051-9947,searchweb201603_5,ppcSwitch_4&btsid=66711830-6dac-41e4-9674-fe24475ac9f5&algo_expid=4a176404-eb42-4313-9eae-531e59e60ccf-0&algo_pvid=4a176404-eb42-4313-9eae-531e59e60ccf
Awfully expensive though.
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@NeverDie Yes, I got to thinking about that after I pulled the trigger.
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@d00616 Thanks.
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Lastly, I'm quite intrigued by this one, which is an nRF51832, because it is only 11.4mmx9.5mm in size:
https://www.aliexpress.com/store/product/PTR5528-Fingertip-size-nRF51822-Module-Ultra-Low-Power-Bluetooth-4-0-Low-Energy-RF-Module-Free/130096_1705429590.html?spm=2114.12010108.0.0.TRBTKqHas anyone seen anything else which is that small or even smaller?
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@Terrence
Maybe you'd like this one (or similar) a little better, as it has some additional sensors already built into it:
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/Free-Ship-Bluetooth-4-0-temperature-sensor-pressure-sensor-acceleration-sensor-gyroscope-light-nRF51822-bluetooth-4/32705653095.html?spm=2114.10010108.1000013.6.5TTgVd&traffic_analysisId=recommend_2088_3_82199_new&scm=1007.13339.82199.0&pvid=71d80c46-bd50-4ed5-bdc6-1d6253d9e038&tpp=1
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@NeverDie said in Minimalist SAMD21 TQFP32 Pro Mini:
What exactly do I need to do to get it work? I tried it from Windows, and failed. I seem to recall you said you got it to work from Linux after changing a definition. Would you mind showing the steps, or providing a link on how to do that?
I have updates my documentation: https://www.openhardware.io/view/376
I have tested all three programmer types with Windows 10. It looks like Zadig installs the correct drivers for J-Link and ST-Link adapters. The CMSIS-DAP requires the serial driver from mbed.
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@d00616
Thanks! I had been using a computer running Windows 7, and I got no joy with Zadig and st-link v2 on that. However, you just now mentioned Windows 10, so I'll give that a try.
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@NeverDie said in Minimalist SAMD21 TQFP32 Pro Mini:
Maybe you'd like this one (or similar) a little better, as it has some additional sensors already built into it:
This is the discussion to this board: https://forum.mysensors.org/topic/6951/nrf5-multi-sensor-board-12-14/1
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@NeverDie said in Minimalist SAMD21 TQFP32 Pro Mini:
hanks! I had been using a computer running Windows 7, and I got no joy with Zadig and st-link v2 on that. However, you just now mentioned Windows 10, so I'll give that a try.
I think the best option for beginners is to use an CMSIS-DAP/DAPLink adapter. Firmware and drivers are open source and there is an integrated serial port.
The ST-Link adapter is initialized with an ST-Link driver by libwdi. If you have luck you can find an old variant.
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@NeverDie said in Minimalist SAMD21 TQFP32 Pro Mini:
Has anyone seen anything else which is that small or even smaller?
Yes. 9x9mm with antenna: https://de.aliexpress.com/store/product/PTR5628-Nordic-nRF52832-Module-BLE-4-0-Module-Free-shipping/130096_32760971926.html but photo and product description are different. I had a discussion with the manufacterer end of 2016 at this time the module was shown as 9*9mm module. The PTR5628 has no 32kHz oscillator, you have to use the unprecise RC oscillator.
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@d00616
9mmx9mm would be great. However, are you certain? Product description says 15.4mmx15.4mm.Pitty the lack of 32khz crystal, but for a lot of sensor nodes perhaps it won't matter much.
I did find this after making my prior post:
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/nRF51-M0-Ultra-small-Bluetooth-BLE-Module-4-0-Module-LIS3DH-Support-10-GPIOs/32697055436.html?spm=a2g0s.13010208.99999999.295.t9NHvJ
which is allegedly 8.5mmx10.5mm and allegedly does have a 32Khz crystal, but the trade-off is that it's an nRF51832, not an nRF52832.
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@d00616 said in Minimalist SAMD21 TQFP32 Pro Mini:
I think the best option for beginners is to use an CMSIS-DAP/DAPLink adapter.
Thanks for the tip! Based on your recommendation, I ordered this:
http://www.adafruit.com/product/2764
because I could expedite the shipping.Hopefully it works.
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@d00616
The smallest size I found was this:
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/Bluetooth-UART-Wireless-Data-Transceiver-DA14580-Module-for-Arduino/32666222427.html?spm=a2g0s.13010208.99999999.284.fiUAYv
It's just 5mmx6.2mm! So, at least the size is very much awesome. It does have an M0 Cortex core, but it's not a Nordic Semi chip: http://www.dialog-semiconductor.com/sites/default/files/da14580_ds_3v4.pdf
so I have no idea if, or to what degree, it can be easily programmed from within the familiar Arduino IDE the way the Nordic chips apparently can. Do you happen to know if it would be trivially easy? Or would getting it to work be a project unto itself?
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@gohan said in Minimalist SAMD21 TQFP32 Pro Mini:
what would you use those connectors for?
Once outfitted with the connectors, the modules should then fit quite easily into these for prototyping:
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/6-X-8CM-spacing-1-27-universal-board-thickness-1-6mm-sided-HASL-PCB-test-board/32774106087.html?spm=a2g0s.13010208.99999999.288.lLgJVvNot sure if there exist 1.27mm pitch breadboards, but I haven't found any on Aliexpress.
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@NeverDie said in Minimalist SAMD21 TQFP32 Pro Mini:
It's just 5mmx6.2mm! So, at least the size is very much awesome. It does have an M0 Cortex core, but it's not a Nordic Semi chip: http://www.dialog-semiconductor.com/sites/default/files/da14580_ds_3v4.pdf
so I have no idea if, or to what degree, it can be easily programmed from within the familiar Arduino IDE the way the Nordic chips apparently can. Do you happen to know if it would be trivially easy? Or would getting it to work be a project unto itself?Didn't check in detail but Nordic uses "soft devices", and that's what is compatible with the Arduino platform. That's also why it can work on both NRF51 and NRF52.
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Unfortunately, I don't think the da14580 will work with the current mysensors library: it appears to be bluetooth only. I only did a quick speed read of its datasheet, but I didn't see any mention of the Nordic proprietary modes (or anything like them) that the mysensors library relies on.
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I have ordered one like this. It's pretty small already, less than 2*1cm :
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/nRF51822-04-BLE4-0-WIFI-Wireless-Bluetooth-Module-TTL-Low-Power-Consumption/32682158906.htmlIt has very limited I/O and is made to be used in addition to a MCU using UART to communicate, but the SWDIO and SWDCLK pins are broken out so I will see if I can reprogram it.
It has a datasheet to at least get a valid footprint (as I don't plan to use the serial protocol) :
https://4tronix.co.uk/picobot2/WT51822-S4AT.pdfAnd it has been featured on Nordic's website where they say it's supposed to have FCC certification (and CE too, but that's just declarative...).
http://www.nordicsemi.com/node_206/node_305/Product-Related-News/Nordic-powered-Bluetooth-Smart-module-simplifies-development-of-wireless-wearables-toys-and-smart-home-solutionsThey also claim a 50m range which is way better than the 10m of the da14580 you link above.
So if it can be reprogrammed without problem it looks like a perfect candidate for basic nodes like door, I2C etc
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Both the price and size are certainly nice. I think d00616 would probably point out that it lacks a 32Khz crystal, but since I lack experience with the nRF5's, I don't know how significant that is or isn't. Anyone know?
BTW, it would also be nice to know whether or not the OTA sketch upload capability will work on an nRF51, or only an nRF52 (and also whether it will work on an nRF52832 or only the future nRF52840). Anyone know?
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@NeverDie said in Minimalist SAMD21 TQFP32 Pro Mini:
Both the price and size are certainly nice. I think d00616 would probably point out that it lacks a 32Khz crystal, but since I lack experience with the nRF5's, I don't know how significant that is or isn't. Anyone know?
Right, it sucks for low power at it needs recalibration every 4 seconds to stay accurate enough, generating 10uA extra consumption. But I'm not sure if this is needed for bluetooth only (because it has to wake up regularly and listen during a precise time window), or also for "nrf24" mode because in that mode we don't need to be precise or regular listenin.
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@NeverDie said in Minimalist SAMD21 TQFP32 Pro Mini:
BTW, it would also be nice to know whether or not the OTA sketch upload capability will work on an nRF51, or only an nRF52 (and also whether it will work on an nRF52832 or only the future nRF52840). Anyone know?
Nordic's DFU bootloader is also working with nRF51 chips. https://devzone.nordicsemi.com/documentation/nrf51/4.4.1/html/group__bootloader__dfu__description.html
At the moment the MySensors implementation is not compatible with a SoftDevice. This requires to change interrupts, use some SoftDevice system calls and move the NVM driver Flash area out of the DFU bootloader area.
I have started a new thread for OTA update discussion: https://forum.mysensors.org/topic/7146/nrf5-ota-updates
@Nca78 said in Minimalist SAMD21 TQFP32 Pro Mini:
Right, it sucks for low power at it needs recalibration every 4 seconds to stay accurate enough, generating 10uA extra consumption. But I'm not sure if this is needed for bluetooth only (because it has to wake up regularly and listen during a precise time window), or also for "nrf24" mode because in that mode we don't need to be precise or regular listenin.
That's correct. If required, the calibration task must be implemented or is part of the SoftDevice. At the moment the radio doesn't require a precise RTC for nRF24 compatibility. For battery powered sensors listening for commands a time slotted protocol is required. Then this protocol relies on a precise RTC.
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I'm leaning more toward the nRF52 platform over the nRF51, in part for its superior range but also because I'm guessing it will be a little easier for the person who is implementing the OTA sketch uploads to implement it first on an nRF52 (more resources, less constrained).
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So, is the speed of the Cortex on an nRF5 already good enough that one can simply emulate an atsha signing component, and thus that part now completely disappears from the BOM?
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@NeverDie you can run soft signing on any device. It emulates the atsha204a equally well. The performance of the MCU only affects the speed of the calculations, not the quality of the result.
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@NeverDie but remember that if you use soft signing it is your own responsibility to protect the hmac key from readout by an attacker with physical access to the device.
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@Anticimex said in Minimalist SAMD21 TQFP32 Pro Mini:
@NeverDie but remember that if you use soft signing it is your own responsibility to protect the hmac key from readout by an attacker with physical access to the device.
Thanks! Good to know. Speaking only for myself, I don't think I'll be losing any sleep over the prospect of an attacker gaining physical access to one of my home devices with the intent of extracting the hmac key. I'm more likely to win a lottery than have that happen--and I don't even play lotteries.
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@NeverDie that is probably correct, I just feel a responsibility to inform everyone of any known weaknesses in the security infrastructure
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@Anticimex
I don't mean to trivialize it. For commercial applications, the atsha204a would of course make sense.But, at least for now, it sounds likely that $2.73 will buy you the hardware for a nice little home wireless node, minus sensors and power supply. That's today's price for a NRF51822-04 MINI that NCA78 linked to above. And, of course, that price will continue to drop. Pretty cool!
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Which library is most recommended for exploiting the RTC that's on an nRF52832? Likewise, what's the best library for sleeping the nRF52832? Since I have the DK, I'd like to take some current measurements while running some demo code for that. That will establish a baseline for comparing future measurements.
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I just now ordered this:
https://www.sparkfun.com/products/13746?_ga=2.39569123.1141912816.1499956888-1087552930.1495048698It's like a regular FTDI, but it can also power your project at 3.3v at up to 600ma!
Previously I had to make my own hacked FTDI interface to do that. Ordinary 3.3v FTDI's will burn out under the load of, say, an ESP8266, or a 20db Tx power amplified nRF24L01.
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@NeverDie said in Minimalist SAMD21 TQFP32 Pro Mini:
Which library is most recommended for exploiting the RTC that's on an nRF52832? Likewise, what's the best library for sleeping the nRF52832? Since I have the DK, I'd like to take some current measurements while running some demo code for that. That will establish a baseline for comparing future measurements.
Sleeping is implemented by hwSleep(). This function uses one RTC. If you need advanced RTC access, you have to cooperate with this RTC, because the interrupt routine must reset the state registers. On nRF51 the other RTC is used for millis(). The nRF52 has one RTC free.
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In case anyone else either has, or is thinking of getting, the nRF52832 DK, it looks as though there is indeed a way to use its programmer to program an offboard nRF52832 without desoldering the nRF52832 that's on the DK. Here's the existence proof photo where an 832 DK is being used to program Sparkfun's nRF52832 breakout board over the two SW lines:
The caption reads "For faster programming, an nRF52832 Development Kit can be used to program the nRF52832 Breakout Board."
I haven't yet found the instructions on how to do it though.
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@NeverDie said in Minimalist SAMD21 TQFP32 Pro Mini:
@d00616
9mmx9mm would be great. However, are you certain?I'm convinced! I pulled this picture off the FCC website, and, indeed, it is 9x9mm:
(https://fccid.io/2AA72-PTR5628)So, thanks for mentioning its size, or else I never would have known!
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So, what's the smallest nRF52 module that also includes a 32Khz crystal? I think I might want to standardize as much as possible on a single module rather than juggle a bunch of different ones.
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@NeverDie said in Minimalist SAMD21 TQFP32 Pro Mini:
So, what's the smallest nRF52 module that also includes a 32Khz crystal? I think I might want to standardize as much as possible on a single module rather than juggle a bunch of different ones.
What do you think about creating an table with known modules including integrated hardware, available ports and size?
I think, most small modules comes without 32kHz crystal. This is mostly an option. Maybe for the 9x9mm module. But I think the antenna is no good choice for indoor usage.
I have a lot of RedBear BLE Nano 2 (18x21mm) modules. It's complete including 32Khz crystal and a 3-13V voltage converter. With 2.54mm pins it's easy to solder.
I have asked the manufacturer(cdebyte) of the nice nRF24 and nRF52 modules if it's possible to build an module including the nRF52, an RGB LED, an button and 5V protected inputs with the layout like the popular nRF24 modules plus two optional pins (6/8 IO Ports!). I think such type of nRF52 module makes it easy to migrate to 32 Bit using existing boards or build new boards.
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I just now noticed that Ebyte also has a storefront on aliexpress.
https://cdebyte.aliexpress.com/store/2077046?spm=2114.12010108.0.0.7Yid4a
For me, it's much better than ebay, because it includes free e-packet delivery to the US. So, unlike ebay, I will hopefully get their modules much sooner than September! The estimated delivery time from Ebyte if ordered through Aliexpress is 12-20 days.
https://www.aliexpress.com/store/product/CDEBYTE-E73-2G4M04S-BLE-4-2-5-0-long-distance-100m-2-4GHz-SMD-ARM-Core/2077046_32820692238.html?spm=2114.12010615.0.0.TZClHR[Edit: Also, on Aliexpress, Ebyte gives a coupon for $5 off if you order >$45]
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@NeverDie yes noticed their shop only 2 days ago and feeling frustrated now
For shipment delay I wouldn't be surprised if they shipped the same way with free option and it would just be a different way to state the delay on the 2 websites...
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@Nca78
We'll soon know. I ordered Ebyte products from both Ebay and Aliexpress, and I'll take note of when each order arrives.
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@NeverDie said in Minimalist SAMD21 TQFP32 Pro Mini:
So, what's the smallest nRF52 module that also includes a 32Khz crystal? I think I might want to standardize as much as possible on a single module rather than juggle a bunch of different ones.
I have found the Raytec Modules. http://www.raytac.com/products.php?id=1
The smallest one is the MDBT42V 8,4x6,4x1,5mm with PCB antenna and 80m range in open space.This module https://www.mtmtech.com.tw/M905.html is 6.5 ✕ 6.5 x 1.1 mm
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@d00616 said in Minimalist SAMD21 TQFP32 Pro Mini:
@NeverDie said in Minimalist SAMD21 TQFP32 Pro Mini:
So, what's the smallest nRF52 module that also includes a 32Khz crystal? I think I might want to standardize as much as possible on a single module rather than juggle a bunch of different ones.
I have found the Raytec Modules. http://www.raytac.com/products.php?id=1
The smallest one is the MDBT42V 8,4x6,4x1,5mm with PCB antenna and 80m range in open space.This module https://www.mtmtech.com.tw/M905.html is 6.5 ✕ 6.5 x 1.1 mm
M905 is impressive, but with connectors at the bottom it's impossible to hand solder...
Raytac module is what scalz used for the prototype of his "Aeos" board, pretty small but he didn't look so happy with the range.
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Guys, when you start using these 832 chips are you going to be programming via Bluetooth or just using the radios in some other way?
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@Terrence said in Minimalist SAMD21 TQFP32 Pro Mini:
Guys, when you start using these 832 chips are you going to be programming via Bluetooth or just using the radios in some other way?
I'd like to see the work extended to include Bluetooth. Nearly everything has bluetooth these days, so leveraging that would seem to make a lot of sense. I just don't know where to start.
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@NeverDie said in Minimalist SAMD21 TQFP32 Pro Mini:
Nearly everything has bluetooth these days, so leveraging that would seem to make a lot of sense. I just don't know where to start
I agree.
I have done a little bit of BT programming. It seems pretty complex, but I am sure that will change once we immerse our attention in it.
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I'd like to see an extremely basic script that simply has two bluetooth nodes talking back and forth to one another (maybe just increment a counter on each turn and send just that). If we could get that simple activity working, then I suspect the rest could follow more easily.
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Or there's this from Arduino: http://www.ebay.com/itm/Arduino-Primo-Core-MCU-nRF52832-ARM-32-bit-64MHz-ESP8266-WiFi-BT-BLE-A0000138-/122599125462?hash=item1c8b7a31d6:g:LQkAAOSwmFNZaQRe
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@NeverDie Here is Kris's great looking board over on Tindie for $40
https://www.tindie.com/products/onehorse/nrf52832-development-board/And his great GitHub repo showing how to program it.
https://github.com/kriswiner/nRF52832DevBoardAnd Sandeep Mistry's Arduino core lib
https://github.com/sandeepmistry/arduino-nRF5I am going to try and contact Kris and see if he will come over and join us.
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All the bluetooth sketches that I've heard of so far boil down to a bluetooth node communicating with your smartphone. That's great, and I'm glad for that, but it seems more like a wireless GUI than the internet of things.
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@Nca78 said in Minimalist SAMD21 TQFP32 Pro Mini:
@d00616 said in Minimalist SAMD21 TQFP32 Pro Mini:
@NeverDie said in Minimalist SAMD21 TQFP32 Pro Mini:
So, what's the smallest nRF52 module that also includes a 32Khz crystal? I think I might want to standardize as much as possible on a single module rather than juggle a bunch of different ones.
I have found the Raytec Modules. http://www.raytac.com/products.php?id=1
The smallest one is the MDBT42V 8,4x6,4x1,5mm with PCB antenna and 80m range in open space.This module https://www.mtmtech.com.tw/M905.html is 6.5 ✕ 6.5 x 1.1 mm
M905 is impressive, but with connectors at the bottom it's impossible to hand solder...
Raytac module is what scalz used for the prototype of his "Aeos" board, pretty small but he didn't look so happy with the range.What's great is that both nodes are built around the Nordic nRF52, so the software still works.
With such a small antenna on the small Raytac node, at least some impairment is probably unavoidable. @Scalz How many dBm are lost because of it?
Regarding the M905, if there were some company that could simply solder the M905 to a PCB of the same size with castellated pins along the edges.... we'd be set, because we could then hand solder to that. I have no idea what that would cost or what the minimum batch size would have to be for it to make economic sense. Maybe someone here knows about such things? Perhaps it's something that Itead or one of the mysensors manufacturing partners could comment on or do?
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@NeverDie Here is a repo from Seeed showing master and slave comms.
https://github.com/Seeed-Studio/Bluetooth_Shield_Demo_Code/tree/master/examples
Oh and it looks like Kris posted his dev board on ohw.io
https://forum.mysensors.org/topic/7160/nrf52-development-board
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@d00616 said in Minimalist SAMD21 TQFP32 Pro Mini:
I have a lot of RedBear BLE Nano 2 (18x21mm) modules. It's complete including 32Khz crystal and a 3-13V voltage converter. With 2.54mm pins it's easy to solder.
Sounds like a good way to get started, as well as build quick prototypes.
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@d00616 said in Minimalist SAMD21 TQFP32 Pro Mini:
I think the best option for beginners is to use an CMSIS-DAP/DAPLink adapter. Firmware and drivers are open source and there is an integrated serial port.
Is this how to wire up a CMSIS-DAP to the nRF52832?
i.e. it's the same as a j-tag wiring setup, except that you add the serial Rx and Tx lines?
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Well, this is bordering on ridiculous. I received the CMSIS-DAP from Adafruit, but there is no windows driver for it. Furthermore, the company that made it (armstart) has apparently gone out of business.
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@NeverDie said in Minimalist SAMD21 TQFP32 Pro Mini:
Is this how to wire up a CMSIS-DAP to the nRF52832?
You have to wire SWCLK and SWDIO. In a note of RedBear BLE Nano 2 i have seen, you require DAPLink >1.5 for nRF52832 support. Rx+Tx is not required for programming.
@NeverDie said in Minimalist SAMD21 TQFP32 Pro Mini:
Well, this is bordering on ridiculous. I received the CMSIS-DAP from Adafruit, but there is no windows driver for it. Furthermore, the company that made it (armstart) has apparently gone out of business.
You should see an storage device and an serial device. The serial device windows driver is available at https://developer.mbed.org/handbook/Windows-serial-configuration
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@d00616 said in Minimalist SAMD21 TQFP32 Pro Mini:
The serial device windows driver is available at https://developer.mbed.org/handbook/Windows-serial-configuration
Unfortunately, when I try installing that, it says, "The driver could not be installed. No mbed Micronctrollers were found."
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@NeverDie said in Minimalist SAMD21 TQFP32 Pro Mini:
Well, this is bordering on ridiculous. I received the CMSIS-DAP from Adafruit, but there is no windows driver for it. Furthermore, the company that made it (armstart) has apparently gone out of business.
That sucks a lot. Try searching for the hardware id you see in windows, maybe you can find some other drivers from other vendors.
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Has anyone noticed that a bunch of cheap Chinese "smart bands" use a nrf51822 ?
This opens some new possibilities if used as MySensors actuator !
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SBHyQ1OSM-4
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@Nca78 said in Minimalist SAMD21 TQFP32 Pro Mini:
Has anyone noticed that a bunch of cheap Chinese "smart bands" use a nrf51822 ?
Yes. There are people working with it. Please read the discussion at github. There are watches with non nordic chips.
https://github.com/sandeepmistry/arduino-nRF5/issues/165
There are a lot of other hardware like the Noke Lock
Or the iStubb 2 with integrated stop up converter (maybe inductor + software) which works with 0.9V.
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@d00616
Fortunately, I just received the J-link segger from aliexpress. When I plug it in, Windows seems to immediately recognize it. However, the problem is that the Arduino IDE doesn't seem to recognize it: it doesn't show up in the IDE port list under the tools menu.I've tried installing each of the Zadig usb drivers, in turn, with no difference.
I tried installing the mbed usb windows driver, but it fails with the same error message as before.
I also tried downloading the segger software pack and installing it. Still fails.
Frustrating!
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@NeverDie said in Minimalist SAMD21 TQFP32 Pro Mini:
I've tried installing each of the Zadig usb drivers, in turn, with no difference.
You have to remove the J-Link software completely. With my old j-link I had to install the J-Link software for Firmwareupdate. After that I removed the J-Link Software and all drivers via "device manager" (module plugged in) and reinstalled the correct driver with zadig (plugin module after starting zadig).
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@d00616
OK, I'll try that. Which of those 4 Zadig usb drivers should I pick?
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@NeverDie said in Minimalist SAMD21 TQFP32 Pro Mini:
OK, I'll try that. Which of those 4 Zadig usb drivers should I pick?
Open the windows device manager and pull/plug the device and remove all depending drivers with option to uninstall the drivers.
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@d00616
Right. But after that, which of the four do I re-install from Zadig? Or, am I misunderstanding?
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@Nca78 said in Minimalist SAMD21 TQFP32 Pro Mini:
Has anyone noticed that a bunch of cheap Chinese "smart bands" use a nrf51822 ?
This opens some new possibilities if used as MySensors actuator !
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SBHyQ1OSM-4
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this one with nodic 52832
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next nice board with NRF 52832
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@NeverDie said in Minimalist SAMD21 TQFP32 Pro Mini:
Right. But after that, which of the four do I re-install from Zadig? Or, am I misunderstanding?
The CDC and BULK interface. All other are other Hardware.
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FWIW, I ran across another example of where someone is using the DK to program an external nRF5 board:
(https://github.com/electronut/ElectronutLabs-bluey/blob/master/nRF52-DK-prog.md)
Unfortunately, that photo is also roughly the extent of their documentation, though they do spell out the pin mapping and tell which Linux commands to use.
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I tried wiring it up as shown in the photos to the Adafruit nRF52832 and doing a programming through the DK and the Arduino IDE, but as you would expect it just programmed the nRF52832 that's on the DK and not the Adafruit. So, either there's a jumper that needs to be set, or different software is required to program an off-board nRF52832.
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Well, I found this in the user manual of the DK, which sounds quite encouraging:
The nRF52 Development Kit board supports programming and debugging nRF51 and nRF52 devices mounted on external boards. To debug an external board with SEGGER J-Link OB IF, connect to the Debug out connector (P19) with a 10 pin cable. Figure 22: Debug output connector
When the external board is powered, the interface MCU will detect the supply voltage of the board and program/debug the target chip on the external board instead of the on-board nRF52832.
Important: The voltage supported by external debugging/programming is 3.0 V.
You can also use P20 as a debug out connection to program shield mounted targets. For the Debug out header (P19),the Interface MCU will detect the supply voltage on the mounted shield and program/debug the shield target.So, I'll try powering the off-board nrf52832 separately and see if it then works as described.
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Success! Got Blink compiled and uploaded to the Adafruit nRF52832 Feather using the nRF52832 DK.
BTW, the adafruit LED works the opposite of the DK LED: on the Adafruit (as with most Arduino's), LOW means OFF, and HIGH means ON. For some reason the DK is the opposite of that.
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Here is a photo to document the solution which worked:
For some reason the wiring shown in the Sparkfun and Bluey photos using header P20 didn't work for me, but using the ten pin P19 header, in combination with externally powering the Adafruit nRF52832 Feather, did work. So far, this is the only solution I've found which works from the Microsoft Windows environment using the Arduino IDE. So, this is what I'm going to move forward with.
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So, I have the Mysensors Light Sensor demo sketch running now on the Adafruit. I'm sorry to report though that the range is not good. Not sure why. Maybe it's that chip antenna Adafruit is using on its nRF52 Feather? Now that I know this, I won't be buying any more of them.
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@NeverDie Good work, I am glad you have successfully programmed a chip from the DK.
Do you think we should open a new thread devoted to all of this Bluetooth action?
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@Terrence said in Bluetooth action!:
@NeverDie Good work, I am glad you have successfully programmed a chip from the DK.
Do you think we should open a new thread devoted to all of this Bluetooth action?
Meh, I'll leave that up to the moderator. Meanwhile, I changed this thread's title to match your catch phrase.
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@MiKa said in nRF5 Bluetooth action!:
next nice board with NRF 52832
Thanks for your post! Looks as though they have some very nice tutorials to go with it. That really sets it apart and makes it much more desirable.
Perhaps most significant of all: it claims it can be "programmed and debugged wirelessly"! Well, that makes sense, given the nature of its language.
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@NeverDie said in nRF5 Bluetooth action!:
BTW, the adafruit LED works the opposite of the DK LED: on the Adafruit (as with most Arduino's), LOW means OFF, and HIGH means ON. For some reason the DK is the opposite of that.
Maybe it is like the esp32 that the led is connected to vcc and not to gnd
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@NeverDie said in nRF5 Bluetooth action!:
Meanwhile, I changed this thread's title to match your catch phrase
Perfect.
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Looks as though the nRF52832 sparkfun board has more of a conventional trace antenna:
though isn't it somewhat odd that it appears to also be directly connected to the ground plane(?), or at least a copper pour. Is that normal? This was one of the images produced by sending their .BRD file to oshpark, so that I could get a look at the antenna.
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Please, take a look at the Soc version, only 3,33,10,5 ... Ok it is a Soc version ...
but unbelievable ....
BR
JP
Same question for WIFI bgn and bng/ac ... including a low power CortexM4F also ?
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@jpb said in nRF5 Bluetooth action!:
Please, take a look at the Soc version, only 3,33,10,5 ... Ok it is a Soc version ...
but unbelievable ....
BR
JP
Same question for WIFI bgn and bng/ac ... including a low power CortexM4F also ?@jpb
Nice, but for present purposes the problem is that it doesn't use a Nordic nRF5. The existing mysensors development release doesn't support bluetooth per se, but rather the nRF24-type modes of the nRF5 chip. A chip from a non-Nordic chip manufacturer wouldn't support those modes.What will be interesting is if/when mysensors does in some way support bluetooth proper, at which point maybe some kinds (?) of bluetooth interactions with non-nordic bluetooth devices may be possible. Nordic has a bluetooth stack available for use on its nRF5 chips, and so it's ripe for integration.
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For people who like coincell motes, this type of PCB design should be easy to put together:
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/iBeacon-Module-Bluetooth-4-0-BLE-Support-Near-field-Positioning-Sensor-Wireless-Acquisition/2049663760.html?spm=2114.search0104.3.32.DOxJ8e&ws_ab_test=searchweb0_0,searchweb201602_4_10152_10065_10151_10068_10130_10084_10083_10080_10082_10081_10110_10178_10137_10111_10060_10112_10113_10155_10114_10154_438_10056_10055_10054_10182_10059_100031_10099_10078_10079_10103_10073_10102_5360020_10189_10052_10053_10142_10107_10050_10051-normal#cfs,searchweb201603_1,ppcSwitch_4&btsid=4fa0fbcf-4595-46be-bd67-15faeeec2be5&algo_expid=f9915ec2-6be8-4ffb-aa7c-5da25d04f4a1-4&algo_pvid=f9915ec2-6be8-4ffb-aa7c-5da25d04f4a1
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I have some of these 1.27mm 10 pin box connectors on order from Aliexpress (above), but I'm ordering a few more from Digikey so I can get them faster:
https://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/3220-10-0100-00/1175-1627-ND/3883661
It should make wire-ups for chip programming/debugging a lot easier.Of course, I'd most prefer to do it all wirelessly.... Has anyone reading this had any success with that, or know of anyone who has without resorting to espruino?
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If we upload to an nRF52840 the current mysensors demo code examples for an nRF52832, will it work? Anyone tried it?
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@NeverDie said in nRF5 Bluetooth action!:
If we upload to an nRF52840 the current mysensors demo code examples for an nRF52832, will it work? Anyone tried it?
The 52840 is currently unsupported:
https://github.com/sandeepmistry/arduino-nRF5/issues/70You can try the source code from: https://github.com/lpercifield/arduino-nRF5/tree/nrf52840
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In that case I think I may order another nRF52832 DK, because I want to establish very soon some kind of reasonable baseline for the kind of range I should expect. The adafruit nRF52832 Feather seems to have awful range, and I'm not sure if that's what I should expect generally, or whether it's just that particular design/device. If it turns out to be true for nRF52832 generally, then I may just shelve things and wait for the nRF52840 to become supported and then try again with that.
