why mysensors is based on nrf24?



  • hi friends
    nrf isn't good radio . is mysensors just for fun in one room ?
    if we want put a device in box or cover ( especially metal box ) so connection is lost for ever.


  • Admin

    Metal boxes shields all radio communication (see Faradays cage) regardless of radio used.


  • Hero Member

    @Reza An old discussion with many arguments. No matter what radio you use putting it inside a metal box is never a good idea (unless the antenna is sticking out)



  • @hek @AWI thank you for answer . this is true but but generally i think nrf is not a strong radio even with antenna and pa+lna.
    why mysensors is not based on 433 or 315 ? i think if we use low frequency so we will want more distance for connection. i dont use RFM69 because dont support some feature for example raspberry gateway and.... is 433 or 315 Mz is not better for mysensors?
    thank you for answer.



  • @AWI thank you for link. i am reading this , now.


  • Contest Winner

    For better RF, I am certain the commercial alternatives will work just fine. Obviously, MySensors cannot support commercial systems though.



  • @Anticimex not for commercial . for our building . for functional use in our house . nrf have not a high quality . it can just use for fun , not smart my home... this work good in one room . not all rooms and our building.do you have idea?


  • Contest Winner

    @Reza How about this?



  • @Anticimex a alternatives for RF radio


  • Contest Winner

    @Reza no, an alternative to mysensors.



  • @Anticimex
    mysensors and domoticz are a excellent combine. i am very very happy about this .
    we are build every sensors and relay(thanks from mysensors team) ... also some sensor that there is not in brands for example zwave(fibaro , zipato...) and etc... for example sound sensors or gas sensor or soil moisture...
    now i build a 7 multi sensors ( motion , temp , hum , vibration , gas , sound , lux) πŸ™‚ in one device. or relay for doorbell and etc... this is very intresting.
    with domoticz and events and notification , also use other device for example milight and etc. this is more intresting.
    but just problem is "connection" other device for example milight lamp or smart TVs are very good connection with wifi with domoticz. but my sensors ....
    0_1489149823281_photo_2017-03-10_16-00-11.jpg



  • if there was a long range for connection and minimum lost packet for wall or distance in mysensors so this was very excellent. but ... 😞
    0_1489150312826_photo_2017-03-10_16-17-31.jpg
    0_1489150323911_photo_2017-03-10_16-17-47.jpg
    this is my multi sensor πŸ™‚
    but alas that is work just for max 10 meter Unless with some repeater...


  • Admin

    Oh my..

    May I use one of these pictures on the main site?



  • @hek said in why mysensors is based on nrf24?:

    May I use one of these pictures on the main site?

    sure dear hek 🌺



  • @hek
    i am trying for PCB design . when i do then share better pic.


  • Hardware Contributor

    You're not totally right :
    RFM69 can be used with a raspberry pi, you must use a usb (serial) gateway.
    That's what I'm doing, and I've got very good results : My house is made of outside concrete walls; with my gateway in the middle of my house, I can walk outside 60-70 meters before starting to loose some packets.
    And that's only with a dirty cheap 8cm wire antenna. I'm sure that a better antenna (see GPA-Ground Plane Antenna on internet) will allow some meters better...

    Some people are talking about +1Km ranges with propers antenna.

    I didn't go the NRF24 way because I wanted to use sensors outside the house, and without repeaters that wasn't possible.
    PS : I use 868Mhz RFM modules : using 433 could also rise the range.


  • Hardware Contributor

    @Reza - I have currently atleast 30+ nodes based on MySensors and Nrf24l01+ and it works fine!

    0_1489165663592_1.JPG

    Its DIY and sometimes I have to debug and change something - but it works so good I have my house alarm motion sensors using Nrf24l01+ radios. I have nodes which I have not touched for 1 year + and still works great. Compared to any commercial system (which I have to pay 10times as much) im so happy about this!

    Sometimes you get bad radios, and you have to debug and try different capacitors - but thats the fun about it! If someoen wants a quick, plug and play sollution - I would not suggest MySensors because thats not what MySensors are about,



  • So far no one has mentioned:

    • MySensors can bridge larger distances by using repeaters.
    • There are high-powered long-range NRF24 radios available. I'm using just one in low-power mode on the gateway, and it's already covering my entire house.


  • Why based on nrf24? I came to the party late, but started with RFM69/433 - you are not bound to 2.4ghz in any way, it's just what people used to start with.



  • hi all friends . thank you for answer .
    i mean about this , i think the combine mysensors network and domoticz controller is the best home automation . even better than fibaro , vera and etc...
    In addition to the "cheap cost" reason , we are build every thing which we like. build sensors and devices that is not in brands for example my multi sensors. i can increase or decrease my multi sensor with every sensors in one node and one device.... for example i want have a gas and motion in one room and have gas and motion and temp/hum in other room...
    these is excellent feature that there is not in home automation brands...

    so i mean that is with this excellent features , with many trying from mysensors team(for design mysensors core) and members, why there is some weak in connection between !? i dont told nrf is bad ( i use this in my network several model but just a expensive model is work well for me and this is worthy for mysensors library πŸ™‚ other model work a few distance ) but with this excellent library and this excellent idea, nrf is not excellent choise .

    why base of mysensors is not Mhz frequency (315 , 433) ? for report sensors or send command to relay and ack... are we need to Ghz frequency ?
    i dont use RFM69 until now , but if RFM is better than nrf why mysensors is based on nrf? with RFM we are broader scope? with wall and more distance? RFM have repeater feature?and other feature?



  • It is not based, you can use a RFM69



  • we can build a network but this is not very easy and choose desired place for our nodes . or we must choose special place for better connection and signaling, or we must use repeater in special place ( perhaps there was not good place or wire power and etc... for repeater) also we must use a arduino and a radio for repeater just for weak in connection. so is this better that we have a connection with for example 20 meter in home with wall and if we want use more than 20 meter we must use repeater...?
    now if i want have just 5 sensor in each corner in my home , for example i need 5 repeater or more πŸ™‚ πŸ™‚
    now domoticz have a excellent connection with each wifi device. for example milight and etc... so this is worthy that connection in mysensors network will be excellent even if cost will be more ( A little) πŸ™‚
    we can build a network but this is not very easy and choose desired place for our nodes . or we must choose special place for better connection and signaling, or we must use repeater in special place ( perhaps there was not good place or wire power and etc... for repeater) also we must use a arduino and a radio for repeater just for weak in connection. so is this better that we have a connection with for example 20 meter in home with wall and if we want use more than 20 meter we must use repeater...?
    now if i want have just 5 sensor in each corner in my home , for example i need 5 repeater or more πŸ™‚ πŸ™‚
    now domoticz have a excellent connection with each wifi device. for example milight and etc... so this is worthy that connection in mysensors network will be excellent even if cost will be more ( A little) πŸ™‚



  • @chbla
    do you use RFM69? this is work better than nrf? about distance and wall
    RFM support repeater feature? and we can choose different channel ?



  • I'm using RFM69 yes, and it has no problems.
    I don't need repeaters at the moment, as far as I know it's software based?


  • Contest Winner

    @chbla you are correct. The radio is fully supported and the repeater feature is a library feature, not a radio feature. It is a feature of the MySensors protocol.



  • thank you friends for answer.
    about channel? MY_RF24_CHANNEL
    can we use several channel with RFM ?
    generally RFM work better than NRF ?


  • Contest Winner

    @Reza how about you read MyConfig.h?



  • @Reza it depends on the use case I think, peope are using both, both are working. NRF24 is easier to set up and seems to have more support. Just try it πŸ™‚



  • for help to my friends that use NRF. i test several model. but most are not really range.this model was best of NRF. with this model i have connect with 60cm wall and 10meter distance.
    if you want have a good connection, so use this model:
    0_1489175512097_as01-ml01dp5-4.jpg
    but i think NRF is not worthy mysensors and efforts of mysensors team πŸ™



  • @Anticimex said in why mysensors is based on nrf24?:

    @Reza how about you read MyConfig.h?

    i am weak in english sorry i know repeater feature is in mysensors library, but i think about channel i think this is just for nrf. is that right ?

    @chbla i am very happy with mysensors. i have very sensors and relay and every day i am try to build a new sensor and a new devices πŸ™‚ if there was a stronge and good and easy connection so this was very more intresting


  • Admin

    I think you have missed a couple of details @Reza

    When mysensors started out, the cheapest / best approach was to use the nRF24L01, rfm69hw was not available. So the project evolved around this radio. The RFM69 came in at a later time.

    Unfortunately a lot of Chinese saw easy money, with counterfeit chips, and started to create less than optimal fake versions. That will probably also happen to rfm69hw (and are probably already there).

    So we keep nrf, as it is there in the core.. It's up to you and other hackers, to decide what you want to use


  • Hardware Contributor

    hey dear friend,

    be like water πŸ˜‰


  • Contest Winner

    @Reza If you read MySensors.h you will find what configuration possibilities the various radios have. Try looking for information instead of just begging for it all the time.



  • @tbowmo
    oh thank you for explain πŸ™ and thank you all mysensors team. really thank you. mysensors is intresting really. i try to found best and easy and without any trouble of solution for connection . we are easy to build all sensors and relay(with mysensors library) so this is intresting more to easy , very easy connection between rooms... πŸ™‚
    again thank you all mysensors team and hero members πŸ™


  • Mod

    @Reza so, topic closed?



  • @Anticimex dear friend , i am trying for learn and work well with mysensors library , arduino and radios...
    believe me i trying every days. now for 1.5 years. i am trying every days. but some time i dont know where found my problem and my question. i start learn arduino with mysensors library. because i am Interested very very. now i can write each sketch for sensors and relay. this is for your help .thank you


  • Contest Winner

    @Reza have a look in the file. It's designed to offer clear understanding of the various configuration options. And gives you a good overview of what settings you can place in your sketch to configure the library to your needs (what radio to use, what channel, transmit/receive power, pin assignments, etc.)



  • @Yveaux said in why mysensors is based on nrf24?:

    so, topic closed?

    hi. yes thank you. i see forum and site every days and read new topics and Newest Articles and Recently Updated πŸ™‚
    i hope mysensors development every days in all of world , and the team be healthy always.
    thank you



  • @Anticimex said in why mysensors is based on nrf24?:

    have a look in the file. It's designed to offer clear understanding of the various configuration options. And gives you a good overview of what settings you can place in your sketch to configure the library to your needs (what radio to use, what channel, transmit/receive power, pin assignments, etc.)

    thank you dear friend . i will see and read and translate .thank you



  • And do not forgot about law restrictions in some countries, EU and etc.
    For example with 868 Mhz your device can transmitting max 1% of time per one hour.
    Maybe problem for gateway node?
    2,4 GHZ is relatively free all over the world.
    Page 7 here



  • @kimot this is true . but also about 2.4 Ghz i think there is better modules.what module is using in raspberry pi 3 ( without antenna) or wifi router or milight modem or etc ... !? These are 2.4 Ghz . But working for more distance without any problem . i dont test esp8266 (12-12E and very new models) but Don`t you think this is work better ? I didnot work with any radio. Just nrf and a sender with receiver 433 .



  • Now for a wifi gateway mysensor used NodeMCU with a esp8266. Then connect a Nrf to NodeMCU . sensor network is with nrf and connection between router and gateway is with esp8266. If esp8266 work good , can we use esp8266 module for each node ? I did not work with esp and this is just a idea



  • Now for RGB controller i use this module with domoticz. This modem dont have any external antenna... But work in a good distance without problem and need to a repeater...
    0_1489215904831_Screenshot_2017-03-11-10-30-51~2.jpg


  • Hero Member

    @Reza In order to diagnose your problems with the nrf24. Can you make a photo on how it is wired?


  • Admin

    @Reza

    Have you checked power consumption on esp8266 (and other wifi modules) compared to nrf24? You will probably be surprised..

    Some friends of mine are using esp8266 for their sensors (not mysensors related), battery life is below 1 month (if I remember right), even when the esp8266 is sleeping most of the time. I have 4 sensebender micros (with nrf24l01+) running of batteries for 2 years now, so yes you can use wifi etc. but the battery life will be lower..



  • dear @AWI i dont have problem with wired and NRF and i know i dont have problem with power for NRF. i have a good connection with 5-6 meter with a for example 20cm wall ( i think this is the best of distance for usual NRF . but Whatever increase distance , so increase lost paket...
    now i use this modules and wire for NRF :
    use regulator and 2 capacitor 100u and 10n
    0_1489226417444_photo_2017-03-11_13-29-12.jpg
    i mean just about connection. all mysensors library feature is excellent . really perfect . just connection is weak by NRF.



  • dear @tbowmo i know NRF is very low power consumption but power consumption is just an advantage . we must see other issue.
    if we will want use nodes without battery , so power consumption is not very important.

    you consider we want use a sensor for example 20 meter away gateway , so we must use a repeater ( this means that we must buy a additional arduino , radio , wire and adapter ) also we must turn on a new node(repeater) and additional power consumption . while if we use a stronge radio with more power consumption so i think this is better .this true that power consumption is increase but we remove a repeater node πŸ™‚
    can i (i am not a professional programmer)setup my network with a stronge radio ? or just mysensors team can setup this ?
    esp8266 is a stronge radio?
    thank you


  • Contest Winner

    @Reza look, a lot of people agree that the radio works fine when proper components and design is used. It will remain to be supported by the core library and the community. Alternative radios have been presented to you.
    You say that the power to the radio is good. Have you measured that? You don't think putting a huge number of sensors on the same device, all consuming power and adding noise to the system combined with a rats nest of cables has an impact on the radio performance? You could put any radio in that environment and it wouldn't perform any better.


  • Admin

    @Reza

    I don't use repeaters in my setup, I have up to 15m between gateway and nodes, and I don't see package failures. Even with brick walls in between.

    Power supply is number one cause to troubles with nrf radios, so verify that it delivers a clean 3.3v, filter it with capacitors etc like so many have suggested in other threads. Also verify that you don't have something else using the same channel on 2g4, or an adjacent channel, as this can also give you troubles



  • this problem is for several month for me and i test with one relay and one sensor and some regulator and capacitor and etc... and i am be tired and accept i can not have better connection. so this is not my issue now . just i offer a suggestion .
    if you can add a stronge radio with long range and more power consumption (for people that need long range and power consumption is not important for them.)

    Anyway i am thank you for your trying πŸ™


  • Contest Winner

    Well, as many have pointed out now, they don't have problems with range on the nrf and for even better range, use rfm, so why should we look for other radios? The ones we support are perfectly adequate.



  • @Anticimex
    i read myconfig.h and i think if i understand right , with RFM we can set 3 different frequency . but we can not have several channel. is that right ?
    there is a defect in each radio πŸ˜•
    thank you dear friend for answer


  • Hardware Contributor

    Sure in myconfig.h, you can only set 3 freq for the moment, but this is not a rfm69 problem. It's because for the moment the driver is still lowpowerlab based.
    Lot of improvements have been done, and a completely new rfm69 driver will be released in future, including this feature πŸ˜‰
    I agree too, esp8266 is too power hungry for simple sensors node..



  • @scalz
    thank you friend , this is good πŸ™



  • @Reza I don't know the source of the module you use, but the modules with same outfit did not perform really well for me.
    I have linked some modules in this thread, which work very well for me.
    There are modules with higher power consumption with PA, but other modules (without PA) may also work in higher ranges.

    If there are other transmitter near the frequency you use, it affects the range and packet loss you may see - so, you may also check it.

    I may use a stronger module (with PA) using appropriate antenna for the central transmitter/receiver and another module (maybe without PA) for battery-driven parts. Good antenna is mandatory for both parts.

    Anyway, 433 / 866 / 315 MHz frequency bands have much better wave propagation, but have much more limitations by regulations and not all frequencies can be used in different places of the world...



  • @VaZso thank you friend for answer , i am using several model (different radio) with pa and without pa. but with just one model i had a good connection. so i think other models(with pa+lna and simple ...) all is fake!
    sorry friend just a question.
    how much most range that you test with simple original NRF (without pa+lna) ? how meter with how Barrier (cm) ? without any lost packet and failed.

    thank you
    this moldel πŸ™‚ According to told Producer , this module can coverage 2000 meter. but i could connect this for 15meter with 60cm brickwall.
    0_1489393082354_as01-ml01dp5-4.jpg



  • @Reza Internal walls and special circumstances may affect range very badly in 2.4 GHz band.
    Even fake modules may allow relatively high ranges, but the quality of the antenna also highly affects the range.

    We have not really tried two modules without PA...
    I had communication for about 50-70 meters in one of my very first tests using the worse modules I had, in open field...

    Otherwise, we could achieve ~1.2km in open field one module using PA and other module without PA.
    There was a straight open field between modules and ~1.2km was the maximal range where they could communicate (with packet loss).
    That case when something was inside them, the communication stopped. Till about 1km, the communication was very well in the same setup while it was completely open field.
    One module had a relatively good antenna (and PA) with authentic IC inside, other one had a PCB antenna with counterfeit IC...

    The 2000 meter for that module is sure to be in open field using two modules with PA and good antenna.
    Walls are lowering the coverage.



  • @VaZso you are right , but most of used NRF and mysensors is inside home with wall...
    friends told me dont have any problem in their home , so i think this is just related my radios. probably all of my radios are fake...



  • @Reza It really depends on the special circumstances in your house, the quality of the antenna, the quality of the module and so on.

    In a building we tested, it could communicate in the two far end of it (upstairs to downstairs), however, there was a place where the communication was not perfect (using two authentic modules with PA).
    In my house, I was able to communicate upstairs to downstairs through an about 80cm of "wall" (Godet?) in between, but I haven't done extensive testing with our best modules there yet - however, I have places there where also my WLAN devices fails because of too many walls and concrete... so I think there should be places there where it would fail...

    Otherwise, I found generally internal range is also very good using these modules.


  • Hero Member

    @Reza If you make the calculation then there are some arguments to embrace the "fake" nRf24l01 radio's. The price is very low and there is a good chance they work as expected. The genuine ones cost much more and have not always proven the best. My selection tool0_1489401035855_upload-2e2293dd-f8bc-47ce-a636-b9f822f84947



  • @VaZso @AWI thank you friends. if simple NRF with pcb antenna that you use (original) have a good connection with 15-20 m distance and 30-40 cm width wall ( a connection without any lost or failed packet) so NRF is good radio really. I have not experienced it until now.



  • @Reza Don't forget it is only true if there are no other noises in that frequency like any WLAN radios at a nearby channel or microwave oven, etc.

    Even a bluetooth connection can cause some loss as it is hopping from frequency to frequency.
    Bluetooth works somewhat like in the tale - it does not interfere with other equipments but it interferes with all of them a bit...

    So, if data integrity is really important, one should handle re-sending missing informations by software especially in wider ranges of distance. However, internal retry also helps.
    (I don't know what mysensor's library do about this question.)



  • @VaZso i see different channels in my home and all channel was never busy.i am sure this is just related to radio structure

    thank you



  • @Reza What are you mean about "all channel was never busy"?
    (I assume you tried free channels.)

    Anyway, a simple wlan-scan only shows occupied wlan channels but not other communications (or noises) in the same frequency range.
    Anyway, some modifications of the antenna may highly affects signal strength.



  • @VaZso i see 0-85 channel and i see most is silent , but my controller and gateway is 1m distance with router (because controller connect with lan cable to router)
    anyway thank you. i think this is related to just chinese radio...


 

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